# Hey Der Trihs, over here **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 15, 2008, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926 "2008-11-15T23:48:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/341 "2008-11-17T19:32:26Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > An answer which admirably fails to address the question of why souls should be subject to gravity. :dubious: If they are subject to gravity, then they are detectable, regardless of whether they “cooperate” in the process. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/342 "2008-11-17T19:43:37Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Are you ready to face that day? When preparing for death, you should try to make sure you die in combat. That way your soul goes straight to Huitzilopochtli. Otherwise you could spend years wandering in the underworld. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/343 "2008-11-17T19:49:14Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Fair enough – but keep in mind, everyone’s time on this planet _will_ end, eventually. It’s 100% guaranteed. I suspect you are too young to worry about death right now, but mark my words, there will come a day (hopefully many decades from now) when you will have no choice but to face your own mortality. Are you ready to face that day? And now this thread has veered into some sort of Chick tract. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/344 "2008-11-17T19:52:01Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > Golly, you mean they didn’t do a ton of iterations on a TV show? You mean a TV show didn’t do a 100% scientific test? Not even a show designed to cater to the woo-woo crowd that went on to claim his abilities were real after he failed a simple test? :rolleyes: > > Claimants have to agree to the test before anything happens. Randi does not spring surprise tests on people. How many chances should he have had? How many were necessary? If the man could do what he claimed, this should have been sufficient. This man failed his own test, and failed it miserably. The tv show wasn’t conducting the test, they were just filming it. It was done as an “official Randi challenge” and there was no indication made during the program that any extra runs of the test had been carried out. I accept there are a lot of crackpots wanting to be tested, but once Randi agreed to do so, I’d have expected a far more ‘scientific’ approach than what I saw. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/345 "2008-11-17T19:59:19Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I accept there are a lot of crackpots wanting to be tested, but once Randi agreed to do so, I’d have expected a far more ‘scientific’ approach than what I saw. You need to read the rules of the [Challenge](http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge/challenge-application.html), particularly numbers 1, 2, 3, and 6. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/346 "2008-11-17T20:01:01Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > The people being tested agree to this ahead of time, and have a hand in the making of the test. Randi does not spring surprise tests on people. I’ve heard the litany a hundred times before, blah blah. However, you guys deliberately ignore this part: _James Randi must also agree to the conditions of the test._ If the subject does not agree to Randi’s conditions, the test will never happen. I’m confident that if I did apply for the $1M prize, the negotiation would go something like this: **Randi:** The person will be hidden behind a plywood barrier, small enough for his/her aura to extend a foot beyond the barrier. You will read this person’s aura and determine his/her age, sex, birthday, shoe size, and whether or not they read Harry Potter novels. **KGS:** That’s impossible. I need to see a part of the person in order to view their aura, and I can’t divine people’s shoe size anyway. **Randi:** Fine, I’ll strike the shoe size requirement. But the person will remain behind the barrier. **KGS:** I still need to see the person. **Randi:** No, you don’t. Auras always extend a foot beyond the person, here’s a book on New Age philosophy which says– **KGS:** So what? That book is wrong. You’re picking out one single text from a religion that’s highly controversial and has no oversight board and anyone can write a book saying anything they want, that book has no authority over how it really works. **Randi:** Maybe so, maybe not. But I don’t care. You must agree to this condition, or I won’t sign my side of the form. **KGS:** Jamie, that’s _not_ how it works. And even if it was – how do I know this person won’t pull his/her aura next their skin? Or shield their aura entirely? **Randi:** What are you talking about? **KGS:** They can do it. **Randi:** No they can’t. **KGS:** Yes they can. **Randi:** No they can’t. **KGS:** Yes they can, and if you truly studied auras, and practiced how to read & manipulate them, you would understand the science behind them. **Randi:** I don’t understand…what does “science” have to do with anything? **KGS:** I’m saying, that’s how it works. **Randi:** No it doesn’t. **KGS:** Yes it does. **Randi:** No it doesn’t. **KGS:** Yes it does. **Randi:** No it doesn’t. **KGS:** Look, asshole. I don’t care what you say. And I don’t trust you not to rig that part of the test. I’m NOT agreeing to that condition. **Randi:** Your loss, then. Haha, sucks to be you. Neener, neener. **KGS:** [burns with cold, impotent rage…] After that, Randi will go to his blog and announce: _“ **KGS** has refused to take part in the experiment! Which PROVES his aura reading skill has no validity! So let’s make fun of him in public and send him hate mail infected with spyware!”_ Well, probably not the spyware part. But some Randifans may go that far, and I get enough spyware-infected email already. Why take the risk? It’s not like I need the money, anyways. > [@](#): > > This would of course be because no one has been able to prove they have the abilities they claim to have. Hey, why don’t YOU go for the $1 million? I’ve already stated that my skill is science-based, and if you studied the science behind it like I have, you will discover that I’m right. Then you could apply that skill, convince Randi to agree to the proper conditions, pass the test, and you’ll be world-famous. You can do it. What’s stopping you? Hey, it’s a million dollars!! Doesn’t the prospect of a million dollars make it worth the effort? Go for it! > [@](#): > > What victim? The only victims here are the people who fall for the psychic scams. What “psychic scams” are you talking about? [sup]😕[/sup] > [@](#): > > And this is why no one is listening to you. This here is some serious weapons grade crazy. This is crazy with malice aforethought. I mean, it’s got it all: the afterlife, Catholic Church conspiracies, scams, the bowels of the earth, big capital letters, and not single whiff of evidence. This is a forum dedicated to the fighting of ignorance, and with people like you we always know we’ll be needed. No, this is a forum dedicated to flaming the shit out of people. Therefore, invoking the Flames of Hell is perfectly on-topic, isn’t it? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/347 "2008-11-17T20:02:40Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > I’ve heard the litany a hundred times before, blah blah. However, you guys deliberately ignore this part: _James Randi must also agree to the conditions of the test._ If the subject does not agree to Randi’s conditions, the test will never happen. I’m confident that if I did apply for the $1M prize, the negotiation would go something like this: Read rule 1 of the Challenge, cited above. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/348 "2008-11-17T20:03:42Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > The tv show wasn’t conducting the test, they were just filming it. It was done as an “official Randi challenge” and there was no indication made during the program that any extra runs of the test had been carried out. I accept there are a lot of crackpots wanting to be tested, but once Randi agreed to do so, I’d have expected a far more ‘scientific’ approach than what I saw. So how many tests should have been done? How many should he have been allowed to fail? What were the pass/fail conditions agreed to by the psychic? If this person could do what he said he could do, he wouldn’t have failed. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/349 "2008-11-17T20:07:08Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Read rule 1 of the Challenge, cited above. I take it you mean this part: > [@JREF Challenge Rules](#): > > 1. This is the primary and most important of these rules: Applicant must state clearly in advance, **and applicant and JREF will agree upon,** what powers and/or abilities will be demonstrated, the limits of the proposed demonstration (so far as time, location and other variables are concerned) and what will constitute both a positive and a negative result. [emphasis mine] No further comment necessary, I hope. > [@stpauler](#): > > And now this thread has veered into some sort of Chick tract. Naah – that would require me to declare that Jews Are Evil. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/350 "2008-11-17T20:10:08Z")
What properties about someone can you determine by reading their aura? And by you, I mean you personally, **KGS**. Not some hypothetical psychic. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/351 "2008-11-17T20:10:10Z")
Okay everyone, you can consider this thread finished. **KGS** has provided an unequivocal, bullet-proof argument in the form of an imaginary conversation with Randi. You can be assured that this is exactly how the conversation would have gone, if it had in fact ever existed. **KGS** wins the thread. (by the way **KGS** , your aura is starting to get a little shimmery around the edges, with tinges of red. You should probably have a nice cup of tea or something. Maybe a bagel with a shmear.) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/352 "2008-11-17T20:10:56Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Fair enough – but keep in mind, everyone’s time on this planet _will_ end, eventually. It’s 100% guaranteed. Yup. And then boom. We’re gone. > [@](#): > > I suspect you are too young to worry about death right now, but mark my words, there will come a day (hopefully many decades from now) when you will have no choice but to face your own mortality. Are you ready to face that day? I have a feeling I’m not as young as you think I am. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/353 "2008-11-17T20:16:30Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > I take it you mean this part: > No further comment necessary, I hope. If you stated, in advance, that you needed to see the person, your imaginary piece of plywood would never be introduced. You are the one making the claim. The JREF is merely negotiating what constitutes a pass or fail, and assuring that no trickery is involved. Randi would not tell you how far auras extend. Again, you are the one making the claim. Why are you pretending that having both sides agree is some sort of stick that Randi wields? Isn’t that the case in every contract? Are all contracts necessarily unfair because agreement is required? Are you suggesting that they must \*disagree \*in order to proceed? ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/354 "2008-11-17T20:17:12Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > **KGS** wins the thread. 🙂 [takes a bow] > [@jsgoddess](#): > > I have a feeling I’m not as young as you think I am. Well, you are only as young as you feel…and what you believe about the afterlife has little effect on what the afterlife really is. I suspect you’ll be pleasantly surprised. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/355 "2008-11-17T20:23:33Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > I’ve heard the litany a hundred times before, blah blah. However, you guys deliberately ignore this part: _James Randi must also agree to the conditions of the test._ If the subject does not agree to Randi’s conditions, the test will never happen. I’m confident that if I did apply for the $1M prize, the negotiation would go something like this: And I’m confident that you know nothing of the process. The first thing that has to happen is you have to make a claim. What can you and what can’t you do. You will be tested on what you can do. If you say you can’t see auras through plywood, then there is no plywood in the test. If you said you had to see some part of the person then he would let you see their hand and conceal the rest behind a curtain or other barrier. This would be to prevent you from getting any information by seeing more than you need, you know, accidentally. Cuz certainly no one has ever tried to cheat at these things. > [@](#): > > After that, Randi will go to his blog and announce: _“ **KGS** has refused to take part in the experiment! Which PROVES his aura reading skill has no validity! So let’s make fun of him in public and send him hate mail infected with spyware!”_ Well, probably not the spyware part. But some Randifans may go that far, and I get enough spyware-infected email already. Why take the risk? It’s not like I need the money, anyways. Wow this has gone from speculation to full fledged persecution complex. Can we work some paranoia in there somewhere? Might as well go all the way. > [@](#): > > Hey, why don’t YOU go for the $1 million? I don’t claim to be able to do anything supernatural. > [@](#): > > I’ve already stated that my skill is science-based, and if you studied the science behind it like I have, you will discover that I’m right. I don’t want to study the science behind it like you have, because I find that studying in the dark with my eyes closed and my fingers in my ears chanting ‘I think I’m right so therefore I am’ is a bad way to study. No where in anything I have studied have I found the insane gibberish you’re spouting, not even in the _Malleus Maleficarum_ or _The Yellow Sign_. > [@](#): > > What “psychic scams” are you talking about? [sup]😕[/sup] So, you live in a cave on Mars, is that right? Or, lemmie guess, you didn’t bother looking at the link I posted. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/356 "2008-11-17T20:24:36Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Maybe a bagel with a shmear. What exactly is ‘shmear’, and why would one put it on a bagel? ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/357 "2008-11-17T20:29:49Z")
> [@glee](#): > > If you accept Science, why won’t you use it to see if your beliefs on spirits and auras are correct? > [@KGS](#): > > Been there, done that. You have conducted \*\*scientific tests \*\*on your abilities to communicate with spirits and to read auras? So you gathered evidence under scientific conditions and thereby proved you had these abilities to others? Do tell us more. Or is this just you having a different definition of ‘Science’ to the rest of us? > [@KGS](#): > > There IS no million bucks. How do you know that? Are [Goldman Sachs in on a conspiracy against you?](http://www.randi.org/challenge/goldmansachs.pdf) > [@KGS](#): > > It’s possible – and statistically likely – that at least one person victimized by Randi’s scam-based contest has committed suicide due to humiliation and failure. Ah, you’re a mathematician too. :smack: What is the statistical probability that someone has committed suicide? Could you show your working? Or is this another one of your made-up claims? > [@KGS](#): > > I’m confident that if I did apply for the $1M prize, the negotiation would go something like this: > > Randi: The person will be hidden behind a plywood barrier, small enough for his/her aura to extend a foot beyond the barrier. You will read this person’s aura and determine his/her age, sex, birthday, shoe size, and whether or not they read Harry Potter novels. > KGS: That’s impossible. I need to see a part of the person in order to view their aura, and I can’t divine people’s shoe size anyway. > Randi: Fine, I’ll strike the shoe size requirement. But the person will remain behind the barrier. > KGS: I still need to see the person. > Randi: No, you don’t. Auras always extend a foot beyond the person, here’s a book on New Age philosophy which says– > KGS: So what? That book is wrong. You’re picking out one single text from a religion that’s highly controversial and has no oversight board and anyone can write a book saying anything they want, that book has no authority over how it really works. > Randi: Maybe so, maybe not. But I don’t care. You must agree to this condition, or I won’t sign my side of the form. > KGS: Jamie, that’s not how it works. And even if it was – how do I know this person won’t pull his/her aura next their skin? Or shield their aura entirely? > Randi: What are you talking about? > KGS: They can do it. > Randi: No they can’t. > KGS: Yes they can. > Randi: No they can’t. > KGS: Yes they can, and if you truly studied auras, and practiced how to read & manipulate them, you would understand the science behind them. > Randi: I don’t understand…what does “science” have to do with anything? > KGS: I’m saying, that’s how it works. > Randi: No it doesn’t. > KGS: Yes it does. > Randi: No it doesn’t. > KGS: Yes it does. > Randi: No it doesn’t. > KGS: Look, asshole. I don’t care what you say. And I don’t trust you not to rig that part of the test. I’m NOT agreeing to that condition. > Randi: Your loss, then. Haha, sucks to be you. Neener, neener. > KGS: [burns with cold, impotent rage…] Do you have many of these imaginary conversations? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/358 "2008-11-17T20:29:53Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > What exactly is ‘shmear’, and why would one put it on a bagel? A spread. Like, say, cream cheese. P.S. I believe it comes from Yiddish, but don’t quote me on it. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/359 "2008-11-17T20:40:05Z")
So. KGS goes to Randi, says he can read auras. The test is set up exactly how KGS wants it to be. KGS reads the aura. How exactly do we prove that he saw an aura and isn’t just making stuff up? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [November 17, 2008, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/360 "2008-11-17T20:42:27Z")
So, **KGS** can read people’s auras, except when he can’t, which is because they’re shielding, and not because of any defect on his part, and the only way we know they’re shielding is that he tells us. And this would be worth US$1M because…? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926.md?page=19)