# Hey Der Trihs, over here **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 15, 2008, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926 "2008-11-15T23:48:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/141 "2008-11-16T17:46:14Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > By listening to Kenny G. Or watching Michael Bay movies. Im going to take a stab at how **KGS’s** souls die. See, they’re made of energy, see? And while they are entities, their energy can be absorbed into the entities of others. Cuz they’re made of energy. And if you run too many red lights, or rape someone (cuz who doesn’t want to? Am I right?), then you have a weaker energy field than demons. Cuz they’ve been eating soul energy for since forever! So they’re more energetic than your energy. And you didn’t rub the right crystal when you were on the earth-plane, so you didn’t get that 20+ energy boost. SO you’re a dead soul now. Or, really, just absorbed demon energy. Cuz they’re made of energy. 11th dimension energy. Wanna buy some soul magnets? ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/142 "2008-11-16T17:52:23Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Dimensions are merely stretches of space-time. You can go up or down, left or right, back and forth. It hasn’t been proven yet whether or not there are these tiny, curled up dimensions (as impressive as the math is), but even if there were, they would be integrated in this universe, and not some ethereal plane whereby beings exist in, only to interact with us to devour our 11 dimensional soul. Strange how you speak on authority, while admitting these extra dimensions haven’t been proven beyond mathematical formulas yet. (Yes, I’m aware that’s me calling the kettle black…so fuckin’ sue me.) > [@](#): > > And BTW, When DT said all the evidence points to spirits not exiting, what he meant is it’s non-falsifiable, which means, if they don’t exist then you can’t accrue evidence about it. Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. Just because something is non-falsifiable does NOT mean it doesn’t exist. And there’s PLENTY of evidence (albeit of the anecdotal variety) to suggest that spirits _might_ exist. And there’s plenty of people who believe whole-heartedly that spirits are as real as UV rays from the sun. They can’t _all_ be lying or crazy. There’s no consensus on what these spirits are, though, or even whether or not they are inherently benevolent. Perhaps that’s part of your confusion? Because religions can’t agree on anything _vis-a-vis_ the human soul? It doesn’t matter – if souls DO exist, they are bound by scientific law like all other things in our world. Our belief (or disbelief) in souls has zero affect on whether they exist or not. That said – it is scientifically IGNORANT (and philosophically treacherous) to put your foot down and say, _“I can’t prove a soul exists, therefore they do not exist.”_ That type of viewpoint is anti-logic and anti-science. [Science has been wrong before.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geocentric) And I’ll repeat myself, because apparently nobody’s listening: **NEVER assume that all we know, is all there is to know.** ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/143 "2008-11-16T17:57:00Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. Just because something is non-falsifiable does NOT mean it doesn’t exist. Non-falsifiability does mean that something isn’t scientific, though. > [@KGS](#): > > And there’s PLENTY of evidence (albeit of the anecdotal variety) to suggest that spirits might exist. Sorry, the plural of ‘anecdote’ is not ‘data’. > [@KGS](#): > > And there’s plenty of people who believe whole-heartedly that spirits are as real as UV rays from the sun. They can’t all be lying or crazy. That’s absurd. Of course they can. There are plenty of people who believe they’re George Washington. Science is not conducted by consensus. Of course, it’s quite possible that they’re not lying or crazy, just wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/144 "2008-11-16T18:01:20Z")
You guys know you’re arguing with another **lekatt** , don’t you? Reason and logic don’t work with people like this. ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/145 "2008-11-16T18:04:48Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Ok, I’ll bite. How do souls die? This is pure conjecture, but it’s likely to be as simple as Soul Energy being consumed by other spiritual entities. That’s how our physical biosphere works – plant energy (in the form of [Kcals](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calories)) gets consumed by herbivores, herbivore energy is consumed by carnivores, and carnivore energy (eventually) gets consumed by earthworms, bacteria, and other post-mortem buggers. That’s how the physical cycle works – energy cannot be destroyed, it can only be converted into one form or another. And there’s no compelling reason to assume that spiritual entities operate any differently. There’s also the possibility that unbound souls merely sink to the center of the earth and get destroyed (or, more accurately, “recycled”) by the intense heat & pressure of the Earth’s molten core…but that’s assuming spirits only exist within SpaceTime, which I’ve already pointed out may not be true. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You guys know you’re arguing with another **lekatt** , don’t you? Reason and logic don’t work with people like this. You’re talking about the Near Death Experience guy, aren’t you? Please don’t compare me with him – his arguments were always blissfully bereft of science and logic. My own scientific arguments may be more like a blunt cudgel than a sharp scalpel, but at least I make the attempt, right? You gotta give me credit for that! ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/146 "2008-11-16T18:09:33Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > No, that’s not logical. We know plants exist, and we can observe directly that plants to NOT move. This is really funny. :rolleyes: Firstly you cannot observe directly that plants do not move. All you can do is say they do not move while you are observing them. Perhaps plants are shy and only move when unobserved. :smack: Secondly you challenge Der Trihs about his evidence for non-existence of spirits. It’s exactly the same as yours above - we’ve never seen any spirits. In this thread you have claimed to have evidence of spirits, but you can’t share it with us for various ‘reasons’. (Spirits are shy?) Nor can it be peer-reviewed or published. Just like people who claim to have invented perpetual motion machines… P.S. I don’t much like Der Trihs style, but at least he sticks to the facts (unlike you). ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/147 "2008-11-16T18:10:42Z")
I just want to say I’m impressed to see that so many posters are willing to support Der Trihs when he’s right. I admit that I honestly thought you guys would turn this around into another pile-on of him. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/148 "2008-11-16T18:11:18Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You guys know you’re arguing with another **lekatt** , don’t you? Reason and logic don’t work with people like this. Ssssh! You’re taking the bait and KGS is reeling you in. If you stop, maybe KGS will. What will it cost to get you to stop? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/149 "2008-11-16T18:12:41Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > This is pure conjecture, but it’s likely to be as simple as Soul Energy being consumed by other spiritual entities. That’s how our physical biosphere works – plant energy (in the form of [Kcals](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calories)) gets consumed by herbivores, herbivore energy is consumed by carnivores, and carnivore energy (eventually) gets consumed by earthworms, bacteria, and other post-mortem buggers. That’s how the physical cycle works – energy cannot be destroyed, it can only be converted into one form or another. And there’s no compelling reason to assume that spiritual entities operate any differently. > > There’s also the possibility that unbound souls merely sink to the center of the earth and get destroyed (or, more accurately, “recycled”) by the intense heat & pressure of the Earth’s molten core…but that’s assuming spirits only exist within SpaceTime, which I’ve already pointed out may not be true. > > You’re talking about the Near Death Experience guy, aren’t you? Please don’t compare me with him – his arguments were always blissfully bereft of science and logic. My own scientific arguments may be more like a blunt cudgel than a sharp scalpel, but at least I make the attempt, right? You gotta give me credit for that! You don’t use scientific arguments. Everything you said in the first two paragraphs of this post is gibbering anti-science. You can’t even define your terms. What is “soul-energy?” How can it be detected? What is a “spiritual entity?” These words don’t MEAN anything. Science is about explaining observable phenomena. What OBSERVABLE PHENOMENA do you think you’re explaining? ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/150 "2008-11-16T18:13:01Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > I just want to say I’m impressed to see that so many posters are willing to support Der Trihs when he’s right. I admit that I honestly thought you guys would turn this around into another pile-on of him. So far only Finn with his unreasonable burning hatred of a thousand suns. I must say, his posts say more about him than they do about DT. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/151 "2008-11-16T18:15:21Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > You’re talking about the Near Death Experience guy, aren’t you? Please don’t compare me with him – his arguments were always blissfully bereft of science and logic. My own scientific arguments may be more like a blunt cudgel than a sharp scalpel, but at least I make the attempt, right? You gotta give me credit for that! > [@KGS](#): > > This is pure conjecture, but it’s likely to be as simple as Soul Energy being consumed by other spiritual entities. > … > There’s also the possibility that unbound souls merely sink to the center of the earth and get destroyed (or, more accurately, “recycled”) by the intense heat & pressure of the Earth’s molten core…but that’s assuming spirits only exist within SpaceTime, which I’ve already pointed out may not be true. Science is based on evidence - you have none! Your ‘arguments’ are pure rambling fantasy. THEY ARE NOT SCIENTIFIC AT ALL. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/152 "2008-11-16T18:16:12Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > I don’t give a shit whether you believe me or not. Once I publish my thesis, you will know exactly what I’m talking about. Until you’re ready to present it, shut the fuck up. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/153 "2008-11-16T18:26:54Z")
So much woo, so little time. > [@KGS](#): > > Science has been wrong before. And it is self-correcting through the acquiring of new knowledge via application of rigorous experimentation and analysis. Religion (and other brands of woo) by contrast are static and not accepting of correction and tossing out falsehoods. “Science has been wrong, therefore you must accept my nutty beliefs” is just _tu quoque_ silliness. > [@KGS](#): > > it is scientifically IGNORANT (and philosophically treacherous) to put your foot down and say, _“I can’t prove a soul exists, therefore they do not exist.”_ That type of viewpoint is anti-logic and anti-science. If there’s no evidence for a claim, the claim is worthless. Alternatively, the frequent response by woomeisters to skepticism (i..e. “You can’t prove it isn’t so”) is properly met by “You ain’t got nuthin’”. If you’re proposing a novel and/or far-out theory, it is up to _you_ to document it. That’s how science works. > [@KGS](#): > > We know plants exist, and we can observe directly that plants to NOT move. Of course plants move; most just move too slowly for us to observe. There _are_ in fact plants that are capable of rapid movements, most notoriously the sensitive plant (Mimosa pudica), whose leaflets fold in when touched, the Venus fly trap, and [this weird one.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telegraph_plant) ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/154 "2008-11-16T18:29:03Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > You’re talking about the Near Death Experience guy, aren’t you? Please don’t compare me with him – his arguments were always blissfully bereft of science and logic. My own scientific arguments may be more like a blunt cudgel than a sharp scalpel, but at least I make the attempt, right? You gotta give me credit for that! You don’t have his condescension, and you seem somewhat more willing to laugh at yourself. Other than that, I can’t see much difference. If you are worried about being compared to **Lekatt** , well, you should be. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/155 "2008-11-16T18:31:27Z")
> [@KGS](#): > > This is pure conjecture, but it’s likely to be as simple as Soul Energy being consumed by other spiritual entities. That’s how our physical biosphere works – plant energy (in the form of [Kcals](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calories)) gets consumed by herbivores, herbivore energy is consumed by carnivores, and carnivore energy (eventually) gets consumed by earthworms, bacteria, and other post-mortem buggers. That’s how the physical cycle works – energy cannot be destroyed, it can only be converted into one form or another. And there’s no compelling reason to assume that spiritual entities operate any differently. And I nail it in [one.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10455026&postcount=141) Look, I understand what non-falsifiable means. It mean’s you can’t prove the non-existence of something scientifically. You’re correct in that it doesn’t mean souls don’t exist because of it. It’s just that it’s out of the reach of science. You can’t prove, what can’t be observed. And so far, the evidence coming from the other camp has been zilch. Why is it so hard to believe that human nature is inclined to fill in the gaps in our knowledge by using our imagination. It’s worked so well so far, because our imaginations are so vivid, and we have a tendency to document and organize. Combine this with how prone humans are to interpret first hand accounts inaccurately, and you get a shit-ton of ghost stories, cults, and religions. They’re not necessarily lying or delusional, more that that’s just how us humans are flawed in our perceptions and unpracticed logic. We make assumptions, and huge leaps in logic to conclusions that are so far off based from reality that those caught in that trap have to then try and shoe-horn it in to the confines of science and all that that implies. And that’s where you are now. You can have faith. And you can listen to science. It’s up to you to reconcile the two though. Please do your homework. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/156 "2008-11-16T18:33:06Z")
Are you guys sure that **KGS** actually has mental problems? This really just seems like he’s successfully trolling. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/157 "2008-11-16T18:35:44Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > By listening to Kenny G. Nope. Kenny G. just puts everything to sleep – wanna kill them? Play some David Hasselhoff; and run for cover. That’s how the Germans do it, and we all know what an efficient and soulless bunch they are. * * * **KGS** , Get your priorities in order. This absurd “blowback-pitting” shouldn’t even register amongst them. You know, when in hole… If not for you do it for your soul…whatever you believe that might be. But if you don’t mind my saying, use professional mental-health experts in the meatworld to do so. After all, after you die you’ll have plenty of time to debate all those other souls… **DT’s** and mine included – from Hell. See ya then! * * * PS-Hi there, **Frothy** , LTNS! Thanks yet again for giving my scroll-wheel a workout – if nothing else you’re one consistently bitter windbag. Rage on! ---
**Author:** ![KGS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/90ced4/32.png) [@KGS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KGS)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/158 "2008-11-16T18:40:18Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Science is about explaining observable phenomena. What OBSERVABLE PHENOMENA do you think you’re explaining? Okay, I’ll answer. Last year, my grandmother was killed in a tragic hit-and-run accident. If you’re local to L.A., you probably saw it on the news.\ (BTW, I am breaking my family’s “code of silence” by discussing this – but I think they were wrong to demand that I not discuss this in public, and anyways it’s been more than a year, so screw it.) Since then, I believe she has reached out to me from “the great beyond” (whatever that means) at least twice – once was a few days after the funeral, the second was during my hospital visit last month. I’m not at liberty to explain all the details (too complicated, and I’m aware of the skeptical audience here) but let’s just say, she is the only person in my life who has ever died AND would make the effort to contact me from beyond, if such a thing were possible. We were very close. Now…I’m already aware of the counter-argument, which is that I “invented” this encounter in my mind to assuage my emotional grief. You’ll just have to trust me when I say this is NOT true. I’m officially diagnosed with Asperger’s Syndrome, which means I don’t connect to human emotions in the same way neurotypical people do. I’m not as “Aspie” as I used to be, but when it comes to human emotional connections, particularly the connections _between_ human beings, I’m still virtually autistic. Yes, her death was a shock and a tragic loss, but it took me only a week to process my grief and accept the new reality, which is actually longer than normal. (Indeed, it was at her funeral that I had a sudden revelation – the rest of my family was _just getting started_ with the grief process! Up until that point, I’d assumed that this whole “grief” business was entirely selfish and fake. I know that’s not true now, though – even if I don’t yet understand _why_ it’s the truth.) There’s other evidence, which I will not divulge – but what I’ve described is the _keystone_ of this “direct observational evidence” I spoke of earlier. Can I prove to anyone else’s satisfaction the truth of what I observed? Naturally, I can’t. And that’s the paradox – if you dismiss my anecdotal evidence as scientifically worthless, no progress can be made. It’s silly and wrong to dismiss anyone’s anecdotal evidence out of hand, _especially_ your own direct experience. That’s how scientific method begins – direct observational experience. Just like Isaac Newton watching the apple fall from the tree; if he’d dismissed that event as mere coincidence, we wouldn’t have his gravitational theories to marvel at. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/159 "2008-11-16T18:45:07Z")
This thread is reminding me of that one with the chick and her ghost boyfriend. Funny at first, but now just kind of sad. Although FinnAgain’s impotent flailing against Der is pretty amusing. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926/160 "2008-11-16T18:50:51Z")
Yes, I am dismissing it out of hand. It was not observable by anyone else but you, and it is not repeatable, and there is a much simpler and likelier explanation – you imagined it. You can believe this allyou want, but it is beyond ridiculous to expect anyone else to accept this as evidence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-der-trihs-over-here/472926.md?page=9)