# Hey Everyone-- Let's Bash the US!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 27, 2001, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281 "2001-08-27T04:25:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2001, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281/121 "2001-08-31T22:46:10Z")
[hijack] > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by usurper \* > **A saw an interview by an author concerning this matter, but can not remember the author or book. Does anyone here know which book I am referring too? It explains the reason for how the court knew they were committing illegal acts.** Dunno which book you are trying to recall, but for this topic, I definitely cannot stop recommending _The Betrayal of America: How the Supreme Court Undermined the Constitution and Chose Our President,_ by Vincent Bugliosi. His writing is easy to follow, backed up by scads of references, and makes it explicitly clear how the USSC decision in _Bush v. Gore_ was a trumped-up excuse to stop the manual recounts in Florida and put Bush into office. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2001, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281/122 "2001-08-31T23:05:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rjung \* > \*\*_The Betrayal of America: How the Supreme Court Undermined the Constitution and Chose Our President,_ by Vincent Bugliosi. … makes it explicitly clear how the USSC decision in _Bush v. Gore_ was a trumped-up excuse to stop the manual recounts in Florida and put Bush into office.[/hijack] \*\* Dn’t forget that the cockamamie FL SC recount scheme was overturned 7 to 2. If the USSC had allowed the FL SC another shot, they would have again failed to pass muster IMHO. The FL SC was explictly thumbing their nose at the US SC – not a good idea. Furthermore, they were out of time. The next recount scheme by the FL SC would have taken several days or weeks to design. Then there would have been a stay so that the US SC could consider it. Even if it were approved by the US SC (very, very unlikely) they’d have to spend days actually actually doing the recount, followed by more endless appeals at the state and federal level. We’d have been without a President today! (Maybe that would be good ;)) IMHO 5 members of the US SC did a great service to the country by allowing the new president to take office in a timely manner. sorry for the hijack… ---
**Author:** ![Tedster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4491bb/32.png) [@Tedster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tedster)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2001, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281/123 "2001-08-31T23:07:33Z")
Well, Bugliosi managed to convice Charles Manson, though I’m not sure that would be all that tough. What else has he done? Anyhoo, Bugliosi and Dershowitz slant _way_ to the left, so I’m not surprised they are upset about Bush winning. Dershie was pretty much apoplectic the whole time during the “hand” recounts, that was grand, at least. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2001, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281/124 "2001-08-31T23:37:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > Dn’t forget that the cockamamie FL SC recount scheme was overturned 7 to 2. If the USSC had allowed the FL SC another shot, they would have again failed to pass muster IMHO. Actually, I believe Dershowitz points out that the USSC essentially set a legal trap for the Florida SC, which they fell into. I’d cough up the details, but (a) I’m at work, and (b) my copy of _Supreme Injustice_ is still packed up in a box at home. > [@](#): > > Furthermore, they were out of time. I never bought that argument – we had prior precedent of a state not submitting its final electoral college results until days before January 20th (Hawaii, in the early 70s, wasn’t it?). Florida could’ve done the same thing [SUB]at least until the Florida legislature decide to take matters into their own hands and give the states’ electoral votes to Bush anyway…[/SUB] > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Tedster_ > Bugliosi and Dershowitz slant way to the left, so I’m not surprised they are upset about Bush winning. Dershowitz readily admits that he’s a left-leaning Gore supporter, but Bugliosi doesn’t strike me as in the same camp – the guy cites Barry Goldwater as a political role model, even. In any event, IANAL, but their respective books seem to offer substantial references to prior precedent and the respective legislation to make their arguments, so I don’t think one can dismiss them as biased kooks so simply. ---
**Author:** ![Mobius74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@Mobius74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mobius74)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2001, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281/125 "2001-08-31T23:41:35Z")
_Geeeeez, Louise!!!_ Enough with the election drivel already - go start a different thread. The election was nearly a year ago. It is OVER. Get on with your lives. [NUTSHELL] You citizens who will have the opportunity to vote in the next election can either: (a) vent your frustrations by voting for someone you think can do a better job, or (b) assume anyone we elect will be just as bad if not worse and try to keep ol’ George W. in the White House. [/NUTSHELL] If people are capable of making an informed decision, I suggest the time to do so is in the voting booth, not by engaging in pointless whining after the fact. I was not at all pleased with the choices offered in the election, but I voted for the candidate who I thought was best qualified and nearer my beliefs - whether that was Bush, Gore, or someone else is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS. If you’re an American citizen eligible to vote in that election and YOU DIDN’T, you have NO REASON to have ANY opinion about the winner or loser. So: \*\* Hey Everyone-- Let’s Bash the US!!! {/b] ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2001, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281/126 "2001-09-01T01:48:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by usurper \* > > Constitutional Democracy is American, as in the FIRST. > \*\* Wasn’t the first western democracy the Netherlands? > [@](#): > > As I remember it, we are the people who the Europeans persecuted for religious beliefs, or forced from their lands by governments gone mad. […] Who were the Pilgrims, the Puritans, and the people from the debt prisons? _YOU_ were the persecuted, the pilgrims, etc…? Or do you mean your ancestors were? Or perhaps the ancestors of a tiny minority of the citizens of your country? But if you want to go that way…Who slaughtered the amerindians? Who maintened slavery 50 years after it has been abolished in Europe? Who maintened racial segration until the second part of the 20th century? Why didn’t you mention this heritage too? Perhaps because you have to convince yourself that the american _must_ be morally superior? > [@](#): > > [What I did say, AGAIN, was that we saved the ass of Western Europe, with our production of armaments, and superior military ability. Although not in those exact words. No where have I ever claimed that the U.S. defeated the Axis powers alone. (Another fact)\*\* Written that way, we can equally say that that the soviet union saved the ass of western europe with its heroic soldiers and superior military ability. Except if you said that only because in your mind the US _must_ have saved the world. > [@](#): > > [As for Genghis Kahn… I believe that the U.S. Armed forces might be a more sophisticated fighting force, at any level, over the hoards of Mongolia. In my humble opinion they could beat them with their own weapons, on a battlefield today. Just the advances in military strategy, and techniques of hand to hand fighting would be more than enough dude!!!\*\* Could you refer us to some battle between the mongols and the americans as an evidence of this statement? And if it’s related to advance in strategy and techniques, couldn’t we say the same about…the nigerian soldiers, for instance? But perhaps it’s only related to some concept of you that the US _must_ be better than everybody everywhere and at any time. > [@](#): > > I will try to find a few, but I think I may have a problem out doing the entire continent of Europe > > The Airplane [long list of invention snipped]…Propeller, and… > > My hands are tired, can you type for awhile!!!\*\* Yes, I can give you in return a list of european inventions : accumulator, acetylen, discovery of ADN, glider, dirigible, liquid air, matches, production of aluminium, anesthesia, antibiotics, aspirin, motorcar, bakelit, magnetic band, tuberculosis vaccine, gas-lighters, electric toothbrush, rubber, memory card, chip card, tapes, carburettor, cellophane, photocells, motion picture projector, DDT, diode, dynamit, dynamo, electrocardiograph,… > [@](#): > > I stopped at the letter “e” on a list I found (and omitted things when I had no clue about the translation), because I suppose you see the point, don’t you? Perhaps you’ve noted that some of the inventions appear on both your and my list. Usually because the attribution of an invention to a specific person isn’t always very clear. But I suppose that in conflicting cases, you’ll assume that the invention _must_ be american, since americans _must_ have made more inventions…!!!\*\* > [@](#): > > The American inventions in pharmaceuticals alone, has saved the lives of more people, then the contributions of every other nations since the dawn of time,-- COMBINED.!!!American technology, and its inventors have contributed more to this planets ability to communicate and process information, then all nations in history,—COMBINED.!!!\*\* Some figures or evidences proving this? Or did you just assume that american inventions _must_ have saved more life…etc… > [@](#): > > I think it is fair to say, as we watch the nations of the world, bash us and tell us what stupid and uneducated fools we are, we ignore them…!!!\*\* If so, why are you trying so hard to prove that your country is the best in everything instead of _ignoring_ the bashings? > [@](#): > > As these people use the technology we invented, the financial aid we give them, and the medicines and miracles we create,…!!!\*\* Concerning the technology and medecines, I already answered on this post. Concerning the aid, please refer to my post on the “UN debt” thread, with figures (from the CIA) showing that the US are actually the western country giving the _less_ aid. > [@](#): > > I find that these bashers have never acknowledged us for anything. ,\*\* And you never aknowledge other countries for nothing, as demonstrated in your post. Nor do you aknowledge _negative_ things about the US… > [@](#): > > Nor have they considered the thought, that our technology and open society have given them a direct look into the workings of our nation. We air our dirty laundry before the world, so all can see. I think it is safe to say no country is more open in showing its’ mistakes and its’ achievements.,\*\* Of course, when the US do some dirty job, they _always_ aknowledge it immediatly, _never_ conceal or hide anything, and their officials _always_ say the truth. Are you misleading, joking, or dreaming? And if you mean that _on the overall_, the US _tends_ to be _quite_ open about their mistake and achievements, why do you “think it is safe to say…etc…”? Because you made an extended study of other countries policy, or just because you _assume_ it is so? Everyone can look at the mistakes and achievements of other western countries (to the same extent than the US) too. But perhaps you’re not inclined to look that way… Usurper, what you just did in your post is waving your flag, nothing else. You’re absolutely convinced that your country is the best in every possible way, though it’s a mere assumption or article of faith from your part (I mean not based on facts, on your actual knowledge of other nations, on comparisons, etc…). Since you said your country is very open and it’s easy to look at its mistakes and achievements, perhaps you should look a little at the mistakes department(and also at the achievments of other countries). Perhaps you’ll then be able to understand a little better why your country is not always praised as you think she deserves be. Also you’ll have a little more balanced view, and you’ll avoid to display the kind of “clueless arrogance” which very often generates the american bashing you’re complaining about. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2001, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281/127 "2001-09-01T01:50:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* We’d have been without a President today! (Maybe that would be good ;)) > \*\* Are there provisions in the US constitution in the case a president wouldn’t be elected on time? (or couldn’t be) ---
**Author:** ![Mobius74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@Mobius74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mobius74)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2001, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281/128 "2001-09-01T02:50:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > \*\*Usurper, what you just did in your post is waving your flag, nothing else. You’re absolutely convinced that your country is the best in every possible way, though it’s a mere assumption or article of faith from your part (I mean not based on facts, on your actual knowledge of other nations, on comparisons, etc…). > > Since you said your country is very open and it’s easy to look at its mistakes and achievements, perhaps you should look a little at the mistakes department(and also at the achievments of other countries). > > Perhaps you’ll then be able to understand a little better why your country is not always praised as you think she deserves be. Also you’ll have a little more balanced view, and you’ll avoid to display the kind of “clueless arrogance” which very often generates the american bashing you’re complaining about. \*\* Yep, and I’ll say it again: _“The U.S. gets bashed because Americans are, in general, arrogant bastards…”_ ---
**Author:** ![MysterEcks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@MysterEcks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysterEcks)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2001, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281/129 "2001-09-01T21:12:18Z")
**Dave Stewart** : I have no idea how to classify the Hong Kong press in this, but I’m sure you’re right about it having freedoms that most of the Chinese press does not. I’m also a bit leary of an English-language newspaper–is such a thing likely to really reflect the reality of the mainstream press?–but I’m not sure where that leaves us. > [@](#): > > In any event, are saying that the US and the PRC should have the same yardstick when it comes to accepting foreign criticism? Hmm…are you saying they _shouldn’t?_ I mean, should any country be expected to listen to outsiders more than any other? However, my original point way back on page one was simply that criticising the US will actually get attention _within_the US, and that it is therefore more fun and profitable than criticising somebody who won’t care or debate whether what you say is true or not. **Not that this really belongs in this thread, but…** **Mobius74** said: > [@](#): > > Mounting an ocean-spanning D-Day would have been daunting and I shudder to think of the logistical nightmare it would have been, but I don’t view it as “virtually impossible”. Across the Atlantic, into the teeth of th U-Boats, and without the most of the Royal Navy once Britain fell? (I’ll assume some of the RN would decline to surrender and head for Canadian and US ports.) While fighting the Japanese at the same time? Be a damn tough row to hoe…and I doubt we would have even tried. In other words, if you postulate the Brits actually losing, it’s logical to further postulate no major US involvement in Europe. > [@](#): > > The fact that the U.S. got involved in WW2 when it did sealed the fate of Nazi Germany. I have to disagree. I believe Germany’s defeat was inevitable once Hitler stupidly attacked the Soviet Union at the same time he failed to knock Britain out. Even if you assume the Germans could have eventually starved the Brits out–which is highly debatable, since the German Navy was nowhere near able to stand up to the Royal Navy–I think the Russians would have ended up throwing them at least back into Germany anyway. It would have taken longer, and probably gotten more people killed…but neither the Nazis nor the Communists were ever shy about expending lives. Obviously US involvment shortened the process considerably…and I think it’s very possible that we kept Western Europe from ultimately being dominated by the _Soviets_because of it…but I don’t believe that we were an absolute requirement for the end of the Nazis. **We now return to regularly scheduled programming.** ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2001, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281/130 "2001-09-01T22:12:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MysterEcks \* > [ > However, my original point way back on page one was simply that criticising the US will actually get attention _within_the US, and that it is therefore more fun and profitable than criticising somebody who won’t care or debate whether what you say is true or not. > \*\* Yes, but (at least here) people still bash the US, even when there’s no american around for the fun. Also, a journalist writing an article criticizing the US write mainly for his readers. Not in the hope that some american colleague will read and report his paper. Of course, it’s much more tempting to bash (or release your steam) on an american board. Especially when one of the said americans just posted some narrow-minded “We’re the best” post. But american bashing isn’t only intended to infuriates americans. ---
**Author:** ![pennylane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@pennylane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pennylane)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2001, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281/131 "2001-09-02T03:29:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > **Nor do you aknowledge _negative_ things about the US…** I agree completely; I can’t understand why people are unwilling to acknowledge the negative things about their nation. That is the first step towards improvement. > [@](#): > > **Usurper, what you just did in your post is waving your flag, nothing else. You’re absolutely convinced that your country is the best in every possible way, though it’s a mere assumption or article of faith…Perhaps you’ll then be able to understand a little better why your country is not always praised as you think she deserves be. Also you’ll have a little more balanced view, and you’ll avoid to display the kind of “clueless arrogance” which very often generates the american bashing you’re complaining about.** While Usurper may seem like a total lunatic, there are people like him in every country. Although I think that Americans are on average more ignorant about the rest of the world than other nationalities, I have not found there to be more raving patriots in America than in any other country in which I have had the privilege to live. Also America is the only developed nation in which I have met people who not only hate their homeland but actually masquerade as people of a different nationality (in this case, usually Canadian) in order to participate in a bit of bashing themselves. The European bashing of America is understandable in some cases because America does differ from Europe on several major issues. America is more conservative and more ignorant and thus easier to ridicule. And arrogant Americans inspire further mockery, but so do the arrogant of every nation, those who claim that the stereotypes are totally unjustified, those who claim that their countrymen have no flaws. The reason for America(n) bashing is simple: the U.S.A. is the dominant world power and this is resented by other nations. Americans themselves are guilty of this resentment towards the U.S.S.R. “Bashing” another entity is a way to make oneself feel superior, and it’s pretty harmless. I find it a bit ridiculous that Europeans spend so much time discussing the death sentence in a country so far away, rather than discussing national issues, but in a way I think that Americans should just feel flattered. ---
**Author:** ![Mobius74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@Mobius74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mobius74)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2001, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281/132 "2001-09-02T04:48:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pennylane \* > **While Usurper may seem like a total lunatic, there are people like him in every country. Although I think that Americans are on average…** Okay - I’ll agree with “on average” here > [@](#): > > _pennylane (continued)_ > **…more ignorant about the rest of the world than other nationalities, I have not found there to be more raving patriots in America than in any other country in which I have had the privilege to live. Also America is the only developed nation in which I have met people who not only hate their homeland but actually masquerade as people of a different nationality (in this case, usually Canadian) in order to participate in a bit of bashing themselves.** And you obviously have not met me. I’m a patriot, though I don’t consider myself a “raving patriot”. After speaking to a number of people from England, Canada, and Australia, I find that there a good proportion of them that fit easily into the “fiercly loyal” category (and justly so). I don’t feel I have to masquerade as Canadian or Israeli or Martian to criticise the U.S. - after all, anyone who has half a brain and more compassion than a house plant can see what is awry. The trick is finding an American who is (a) willing to admit things are out of whack AND (b) has enough faith that things will be set right. So its alright to start with a stereotype as a model, but don’t expect all us Yankees to fit the mold. Actually, if you find yourself unwilling to let loose of your stereotype, understanding Americans is going to be more complicated than herding cats. > [@](#): > > _pennylane (continued)_ > **The European bashing of America is understandable in some cases because America does differ from Europe on several major issues. America is more conservative and more ignorant…** Okay - “ignorant” I’ll let go, but I’d like to add that this is an ignorance bred from arrogance or apathy, not from a lack of intelligence or education. > [@](#): > > _pennylane (continued)_ > **…and thus easier to ridicule. And arrogant Americans inspire further mockery, but so do the arrogant of every nation, those who claim that the stereotypes are totally unjustified, those who claim that their countrymen have no flaws. …** Well, I said it earlier in this very thread, but guess you missed it: “Rome fell - not to outside conquerors, but from its own excesses and corruption. Since history seems to repeat itself, I expect someday that the U.S. will also be a victim of its own flaws.” > [@](#): > > _pennylane (continued)_ > \*\*The reason for America(n) bashing is simple: the U.S.A. is the dominant world power and this is resented by other nations. Americans themselves are guilty of this resentment towards the U.S.S.R. “Bashing” another entity is a way to make oneself feel superior, and it’s pretty harmless. I find it a bit ridiculous that Europeans spend so much time discussing the death sentence in a country so far away, rather than discussing national issues, but in a way I think that Americans should just feel flattered. \*\* The big problem with the USSR was the complete inability of our leaders and theirs to come to any equal and lasting agreements on anything (not to mention several “minor” incidents like the Cuban Missile Crisis). Well, no more USSR, no more USSR problem. Since the USSR no longer exists, I don’t see much point in “bashing”, unless it involves Cleveland. However, I understand that bashing Cleveland is acceptable behavior anywhere. Anyway, thanks for the additional perspective. ---
**Author:** ![pennylane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@pennylane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pennylane)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2001, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281/133 "2001-09-03T01:11:58Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Mobius74 \* > \*\* And you obviously have not met me. I’m a patriot, though I don’t consider myself a “raving patriot”. After speaking to a number of people from England, Canada, and Australia, I find that there a good proportion of them that fit easily into the “fiercly loyal” category (and justly so)._\* Um, isn’t this what I just said?? > [@](#): > > **…don’t expect all us Yankees to fit the mold. Actually, if you find yourself unwilling to let loose of your stereotype, understanding Americans is going to be more complicated than herding cats.** I don’ really understand this. What stereotype are you accusing me of holding too closely? I do tend to propagate certain stereotypes regarding Americans, but none of them are relevant to this discussion. As I was trying to defend Americans in my post I can’t see what would have offended you. Unless my ten days on this message board have rendered me so caustic and/or inarticulate that even gestures of support are mistaken for enemy fire. > [@](#): > > **Okay - “ignorant” I’ll let go, but I’d like to add that this is an ignorance bred from arrogance or apathy, not from a lack of intelligence or education.** Of course ignorance has nothing to do with intelligence, but I feel that an education with a more global perspective would effectively combat ignorance. I met several ignorant Americans who were not arrogant at all; on the contrary, they were very interested in learning about my background. I suppose that apathy could have been a factor, but since they were at an Ivy League university they probably hadn’t been dozing through their high school years. > [@](#): > > **Well, I said it earlier in this very thread, but guess you missed it: "Rome fell - not to outside conquerors, but from its own excesses and corruption. Since history seems to repeat itself, I expect someday that the U.S. will also be a victim of its own flaws."** Could you explain this to me as well, please? What does your comment have to do with anything in my post? > [@](#): > > **Since the USSR no longer exists, I don’t see much point in “bashing”, unless it involves Cleveland.** Yes, sorry, I should have made it clear that I was referring to the past. ---
**Author:** ![MysterEcks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f475e1/32.png) [@MysterEcks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MysterEcks)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2001, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281/134 "2001-09-03T03:19:56Z")
**clairobscur** : I never said it was the _only_factor, just one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Mobius74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@Mobius74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mobius74)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2001, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281/135 "2001-09-03T06:29:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pennylane \* > **Um, isn’t this what I just said??** Um, yeah. Excuse me for agreeing with you. > [@](#): > > **I don’ really understand this. What stereotype are you accusing me of holding too closely? I do tend to propagate certain stereotypes regarding Americans, but none of them are relevant to this discussion. As I was trying to defend Americans in my post I can’t see what would have offended you. Unless my ten days on this message board have rendered me so caustic and/or inarticulate that even gestures of support are mistaken for enemy fire.** Sorry, not “you” in particular, but “you” in a more general sense, as in “any member of the human race who is not an American”. BTW, I’m pretty damned difficult to offend, and ten days on this board _could_ render one so, but (in your case) has not. > [@](#): > > **Of course ignorance has nothing to do with intelligence, but I feel that an education with a more global perspective would effectively combat ignorance. I met several ignorant Americans who were not arrogant at all; on the contrary, they were very interested in learning about my background. I suppose that apathy could have been a factor, but since they were at an Ivy League university they probably hadn’t been dozing through their high school years.** Good point, but I don’t harbor any delusion\* that education comes exclusivly from colleges & universities. Experience is a much more reliable teacher, though it tends to be a tad rougher in its delivery and takes somewhat more time. - Before you jump on me for THAT word choice, I’m guessing you don’t either. > [@](#): > > **Could you explain this to me as well, please? What does your comment have to do with anything in my post?** My apologies for any confusion, but _you_ were the one who brought up admission of flaws. > [@](#): > > _(Mobius74)_ > **Since the USSR no longer exists, I don’t see much point in “bashing”, unless it involves Cleveland.** > _(pennylane)_ > \*\*Yes, sorry, I should have made it clear that I was referring to the past. \*\* Great! Means former Soviets can be our friends and we can bash Cleveland now!!! ---
**Author:** ![maryliza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dfb087/32.png) [@maryliza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maryliza)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2001, 7:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281/136 "2001-09-03T07:54:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by erislover \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by maryliza \* > > And, **erislover** , about the America debate: America is not a country. I’m sorry, but it isn’t. The United States of America **is**. You may be an American for lack of a better term, but you come from the United States of America. > > I am, quite simply, going to take you to task for this. > > “Americas” as a geographic location is useless in trying to describe persons. As such, when one says “Asian” do you think russian? do you also think that China and japan have similar culture? What about Canada and the US? Mexico and the US? By your post’s implication we certainly would. After all, we are all American! > > But we are not, I’m afraid. Most of us are good enough to realize that the political society which declares geographic borders is what contributes more to the citizen than what the world may call a particular continent (again-- Asia and Europe anyone?) > > It is, IMO, a twist of fate that the western hemisphere is called the Americas. But that changes nothing; as a descriptive phrase that implies _anything_ more than geographic location, the only way to successfully interpret “American” is with reference to some nation-state (namely, the USA). > > Your counter? 😉 \*\* Sorry, I don’t have an internet connection at home or I would have seen this sooner. Let’s see… You say that in your opinion it is a “twist of fate” that the continent that contains the United States is called “America”. Not to be too hard on you, but that’s baloney. The continent was referred to as “America” long before the pilgrims showed up. So it’s more a “twist of fate” that we started identifying ourselves as American. And I won’t even comment on your statement about how the Western Hemisphere is called America. That said, in my earlier post I noted that there isn’t a better term available to refer to citizens of the United States. United Staters? Doesn’t sound right. Although the usage is inherently flawed, I concede that referring to ourselves as Americans is the easiest way to identify ourselves. However, my nitpick with your statements was that you seem to believe that the country is called (or should only be referred to as) America. That is inaccurate. The country is called the United States of America. When you are abroad and someone asks you where you are from, they’ll understand if you say “America”-- they won’t assume you are Canadian or Mexican. But for accuracy’s sake, you are from the United States. I was simply trying to point out that calling the US America is inaccurate (and doesn’t take into account the other geopolitical entities on the continent). It’s the sort of arrogance-- “I come from the most important country on the American continent so I can call my country by the name of said continent and everyone will know what I am talking about” that makes Americans so unattractive to the rest of the world. Your turn! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![pennylane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@pennylane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pennylane)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2001, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281/137 "2001-09-03T15:54:25Z")
**Mobius74** : I’m sorry, it seemed to me that you were attacking me and I couldn’t understand why. I still don’t really understand why I “must have missed” your comment about the flaws of Rome since all I was saying was that there are people in all countries who refuse to admit their national problems. But never mind about that. One last thing, though - when you said that when Americans are ignorant it is not because of lack of education, did you mean experience as part of this education? I feel that if Americans were educated with a more global perspective and if they had more experience travelling and so forth they would certainly be less ignorant. I would be more inclined to blame their education or experience than their arrogance or apathy, as I haven’t found Americans to be particularly arrogant or apathetic. There are some who are like that, but no more than in any other country. My father was telling me the other day that he had read somewhere that 90% of Americans do not have a passport. But then he added that if he were American he probably wouldn’t feel the need for international travel either, when there are so many different holiday destinations within America alone. I imagine that if I lived in a country which included New York, California, Texas, Maine, Florida etc. I might not be inclined to pay stiff prices and endure nine-hour flights to cross the oceans. And this to **maryliza** : is it really necessary to harp on the country’s name? Isn’t “America” just an abbreviation of “the United States of America” and not “North America”? ---
**Author:** ![Mobius74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@Mobius74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mobius74)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281/138 "2001-09-04T02:39:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pennylane \* > \*\*One last thing, though - when you said that when Americans are ignorant it is not because of lack of education, did you mean experience as part of this education? I feel that if Americans were educated with a more global perspective and if they had more experience travelling and so forth they would certainly be less ignorant. I would be more inclined to blame their education or experience than their arrogance or apathy, as I haven’t found Americans to be particularly arrogant or apathetic. There are some who are like that, but no more than in any other country. \*\* I mean that experience may actually be the most valuable part of ANY education; unfortunately the time and cost involved is sometimes prohibitive, thus the only viable alternative is often a college education. The way I see things, the only thing a college or university is capable of is preparing a person for his REAL education. > [@](#): > > \*\*My father was telling me the other day that he had read somewhere that 90% of Americans do not have a passport. But then he added that if he were American he probably wouldn’t feel the need for international travel either, when there are so many different holiday destinations within America alone. I imagine that if I lived in a country which included New York, California, Texas, Maine, Florida etc. I might not be inclined to pay stiff prices and endure nine-hour flights to cross the oceans. > \*\* I wouldn’t be surprised if that statistic was true, and he seems to have hit on a major factor affecting American choices of holiday destination (read as “vacation destination” if you’re an American). In addition to the U.S. destinations, we are also able to cross into Canada without a passport for short visits. I’m not certain if this kind of agreement is also in effect with Mexico, but maybe one of my southern countrymen can provide some insight there. In any case, if only combining the U.S. & Canada, that’s a whole lot of places to see and (I’m sure you’ll agree) not nearly enough time off work to do it in. If it wasn’t for the cost of those nine-hour flights I wouldn’t mind visiting Europe and Australia. But, alas, my bank account will not support my dreams of overseas travel. Maybe someday… ---
**Author:** ![Dave\_Stewart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e274bd/32.png) [@Dave\_Stewart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dave_Stewart)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281/139 "2001-09-04T03:39:29Z")
> [@](#): > > I find it a bit ridiculous that Europeans spend so much time discussing the death sentence in a country so far away, rather than discussing national issues, but in a way I think that Americans should just feel flattered. I suspect its because the Christian European countries, the US, Canada and Australasia all belong to the West The West is a civilisation, and it treats its participants as member of a family. The US has the death penalty and other unique attributes which make the rest of the left wing family think that the US is the rogue conservative cousin. The analogy isn’t perfect, but that’s the impression I get. **Myster Ecks** - sorry the China Daily has been concerned with domestic issues like the Beijing Olympics. I note the Economist has reported that China acknowledges it has an AIDS epidemic, but this makes no reference to Western criticism. ---
**Author:** ![maryliza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dfb087/32.png) [@maryliza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maryliza)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2001, 9:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281/140 "2001-09-04T09:32:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pennylane \* > \*\*\ > And this to **maryliza** : is it really necessary to harp on the country’s name? Isn’t “America” just an abbreviation of “the United States of America” and not “North America”? \*\* Sorry, I’m not trying to harp. I was merely pointing out that it is inaccurate to insist that the name of the country is America. Because it isn’t. America may be an abbreviation of USA, but that doesn’t make it accurate. And **erislover** made some comments that I found, for lack of a better word, unenlightened-- for example, her assertion that it is a “twist of fate” that the continent is called America. I don’t care what anyone calls the country. Call it Bob if you want to. If you do, though, you should understand that it is incorrect. It is important to be sensitive to the meanings and associations of words and phrases, so a blatant disregard for the fact that the country “America” doesn’t exist disturbs me. And if you read my first post to this thread, you’ll understand that this whole debate started as an aside to **erislover**. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-everyone-lets-bash-the-us/78281.md?page=8)