# Hey hauss, suck it up, chickenshit **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 14, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-hauss-suck-it-up-chickenshit/279802 "2004-12-14T16:35:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![badbadrubberpiggy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/57b2e6/32.png) [@badbadrubberpiggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badbadrubberpiggy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-hauss-suck-it-up-chickenshit/279802/501 "2004-12-16T23:05:51Z")
> [@treis](#): > > If she can’t provide any evidence to back up her assertions then isn’t her fear unfounded? If she can’t point to a history of abuse or a clear reason why he shouldn’t be informed then he gets informed. Again, more slowly…what evidence can she show that will still keep her and her child’s identity from the father? How do you provide a history of abuse without informing the father or someone who knows him? Her hospital records, if she was abused, only show that she was admitted to the hospital, not who actually hurt her. Character witnesses will know the father, and tell him. After all, the mother can’t only provide witnesses for her side of the story. Yes, she probably can provide plenty of evidence that he shouldn’t be informed - but most of this evidence will require the father’s knowledge, therefore nullifying the entire process. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-hauss-suck-it-up-chickenshit/279802/502 "2004-12-16T23:08:14Z")
Some states require people who test positive for HIV to notify past partners. > [@](#): > > For example, in Indiana, HIV positive individuals who fail to notify present and past partners may be subject to a penalty of 180 days in jail and/or a fine of $1,000.6 [Link](http://archive.aclu.org/issues/aids/hiv_partner.html#III) 1. Is this law unconstitutional? 2. Is this law wrong? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-hauss-suck-it-up-chickenshit/279802/503 "2004-12-16T23:14:25Z")
> [@badbadrubberpiggy](#): > > Again, more slowly…what evidence can she show that will still keep her and her child’s identity from the father? How do you provide a history of abuse without informing the father or someone who knows him? Her hospital records, if she was abused, only show that she was admitted to the hospital, not who actually hurt her. Police records showing they responded to a domestic dispute? Criminal record of the father? Did she go to a battered womens shelter? Did she tell the hospital she was abused? > [@badbadrubberpiggy](#): > > Character witnesses will know the father, and tell him. After all, the mother can’t only provide witnesses for her side of the story. Yes, she probably can provide plenty of evidence that he shouldn’t be informed - but most of this evidence will require the father’s knowledge, therefore nullifying the entire process. Seal the records of the proceedings. If the witnesses tell the father toss their asses in jail. ---
**Author:** ![badbadrubberpiggy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/57b2e6/32.png) [@badbadrubberpiggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badbadrubberpiggy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-hauss-suck-it-up-chickenshit/279802/504 "2004-12-16T23:14:30Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Some states require people who test positive for HIV to notify past partners. > > [Link](http://archive.aclu.org/issues/aids/hiv_partner.html#III) > > 1. Is this law unconstitutional? > > 2. Is this law wrong? No, I don’t think it is wrong, though I’m not sure if it’s technically constitutional or not. It’s not the same thing, though. HIV notification is required because the other party could spread the virus to any number of other people. If they know they are infected, they can prevent this from happening. A man won’t sue for custody of his HIV, and a woman can’t get payment from a man who gave it to her. I don’t understand how you are equating these two situations. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-hauss-suck-it-up-chickenshit/279802/505 "2004-12-16T23:15:06Z")
> [@treis](#): > > If she can’t provide any evidence to back up her assertions then isn’t her fear unfounded? If she can’t point to a history of abuse or a clear reason why he shouldn’t be informed then he gets informed. so if he wasn’t stupid enough to beat her in front of witnesses w/video cameras, she has no reason to be afraid of him? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-hauss-suck-it-up-chickenshit/279802/506 "2004-12-16T23:16:25Z")
There is a medical necessity to tell someone they might have HIV. There is no neccesity at all to brutalize women into telling you who fathered their babies. ---
**Author:** ![badbadrubberpiggy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/57b2e6/32.png) [@badbadrubberpiggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badbadrubberpiggy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-hauss-suck-it-up-chickenshit/279802/507 "2004-12-16T23:16:41Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Police records showing they responded to a domestic dispute? Criminal record of the father? Did she go to a battered womens shelter? Did she tell the hospital she was abused? Also, if he’s a drug addict or even a dealer, there is not necessarily going to be any proof of this. If he’s never been arrested, there is NOTHING. If he’s a pedophile, but never been arrested, there is NO PROOF. > [@treis](#): > > Seal the records of the proceedings. If the witnesses tell the father toss their asses in jail. Ah, so then it’s too late. Good plan! Sealing the records do absolutely nothing if the father can very easily find out during the court proceedings. ---
**Author:** ![yosemite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/3ab097/32.png) [@yosemite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yosemite)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-hauss-suck-it-up-chickenshit/279802/508 "2004-12-16T23:19:09Z")
How many pages do you predict now, **wring** , or is your computer still in its happy place? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-hauss-suck-it-up-chickenshit/279802/509 "2004-12-16T23:20:05Z")
**Treis** doesn’t care about babies. Everything he suggests would put them in danger. This is all just an exercise in flogging some sort of personal grievance against women. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-hauss-suck-it-up-chickenshit/279802/510 "2004-12-16T23:21:44Z")
> [@yosemite](#): > > How many pages do you predict now, **wring** , or is your computer still in its happy place? 😉 It’s sitting in the corner shivering. I may have to join it. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-hauss-suck-it-up-chickenshit/279802/511 "2004-12-16T23:29:13Z")
> [@badbadrubberpiggy](#): > > No, I don’t think it is wrong, though I’m not sure if it’s technically constitutional or not. > > It’s not the same thing, though. HIV notification is required because the other party could spread the virus to any number of other people. If they know they are infected, they can prevent this from happening. A man won’t sue for custody of his HIV, and a woman can’t get payment from a man who gave it to her. > > I don’t understand how you are equating these two situations. What if the former parter is abusive? What if the former partner is an asshole? What if the former partner will harass them? etc. etc. etc. All of the same the questions people have been bringing up apply to this law too. In fact they probably apply much more, I would be a lot more pissed off if I found out I was going to die than I had a kid. The question comes down to whether you think the end result justifies the process. How often do we hear that a parents child is the most important thing in its life? How often do we hear that a parent would sacrifice himself rather than see the child hurt? Its obvious to me that knowing you have a child is very crucial information. > [@badbadrubberpiggy](#): > > Also, if he’s a drug addict or even a dealer, there is not necessarily going to be any proof of this. If he’s never been arrested, there is NOTHING. If he’s a pedophile, but never been arrested, there is NO PROOF. If there is nothing that can be construed as proof then I am sorry but then the father is informed. We live in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty. We don’t deny custody to a father becuase the mother thinks he might be a pedophile/drug dealer/abuser why should this be any different? > [@badbadrubberpiggy](#): > > Ah, so then it’s too late. Good plan! Sealing the records do absolutely nothing if the father can very easily find out during the court proceedings. How will he find out during the proceedings? Clear the courtroom and seal the records. Ah I see Diogenes is back to hurl insults. How does that affect your predict wring? ---
**Author:** ![badbadrubberpiggy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/57b2e6/32.png) [@badbadrubberpiggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badbadrubberpiggy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-hauss-suck-it-up-chickenshit/279802/512 "2004-12-16T23:31:01Z")
> [@treis](#): > > How will he find out during the proceedings? Clear the courtroom and seal the records. > > Ah I see Diogenes is back to hurl insults. How does that affect your predict wring? Hmmm…if a character witness is called and TELLS HIM? No matter how they are punished, it’s still too late. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-hauss-suck-it-up-chickenshit/279802/513 "2004-12-16T23:36:28Z")
Then arrest the witness for revealing information from a sealed court session. This ignoring the fact that we shouldn’t assume that the father is ‘guilty’ we should assume the father is ‘innocent’ unless the mother can prove he is ‘guilty’. Lets go back to the HIV law. Why is this law right when it provides no protection for the partner and my law is wrong when it provides protection for the mother? ---
**Author:** ![badbadrubberpiggy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/57b2e6/32.png) [@badbadrubberpiggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badbadrubberpiggy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-hauss-suck-it-up-chickenshit/279802/514 "2004-12-16T23:39:27Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Then arrest the witness for revealing information from a sealed court session. This ignoring the fact that we shouldn’t assume that the father is ‘guilty’ we should assume the father is ‘innocent’ unless the mother can prove he is ‘guilty’. > > Lets go back to the HIV law. Why is this law right when it provides no protection for the partner and my law is wrong when it provides protection for the mother? My point is, she may not be able to prove anything without him finding out. Even if the witness gets arrested, the father still finds out! You can’t take that back, and it’s a huge risk. No matter how much evidence she has that he’s unfit to find out, any of that evidence that would cause him to be informed is utterly useless to her. ---
**Author:** ![badbadrubberpiggy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/57b2e6/32.png) [@badbadrubberpiggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/badbadrubberpiggy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-hauss-suck-it-up-chickenshit/279802/515 "2004-12-16T23:42:19Z")
This I actually don’t know the answer to - If he does have a criminal record, can that be used against him in a trial without his knowledge? Especially if it is a trial concerning him? ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-hauss-suck-it-up-chickenshit/279802/516 "2004-12-16T23:44:10Z")
> [@sugaree](#): > > To clarify: > > If I’ve read that link correctly, 42 states have safe haven laws. > > Georgia and Indiana specify the mother. > > Maryland and Minnesota specify the mother or anyone the mother designates. > > DE, MA, NM, and NY say that any person can drop off a baby. > > Idaho specifies the custodial parent. > > And the remaining 33 states (including Pennsylvania) specify parent. Ah, as we suspected all along, so the "mothers can get off scott free by simply “getting rid of’ their babies and men can’t” fallacy has been thoroughly debunked then. Not to mention that, ONCE AGAIN, the mother, regardless of what she does AFTER the pregnancy is discovered STILL has to undergo the physical risks, procudures and pain of either abortion or carrying to full term. The man has no physical consequences (except as **weirddave** mentioned, afterglow). ---
**Author:** ![Tinkertoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f19dbf/32.png) [@Tinkertoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tinkertoy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-hauss-suck-it-up-chickenshit/279802/517 "2004-12-16T23:49:13Z")
> [@treis](#): > > If there is nothing that can be construed as proof then I am sorry but then the father is informed. We live in a country where you are innocent until proven guilty. He innocent until proven guilty? But she is guilty until proven innocent? My head just exploded ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2004, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-hauss-suck-it-up-chickenshit/279802/518 "2004-12-16T23:52:13Z")
> [@badbadrubberpiggy](#): > > My point is, she may not be able to prove anything without him finding out. Even if the witness gets arrested, the father still finds out! You can’t take that back, and it’s a huge risk. > > No matter how much evidence she has that he’s unfit to find out, any of that evidence that would cause him to be informed is utterly useless to her. Yes I agree it is useless for her in this situation. All this hearing does is allow the father to know that he has a child. If the father wants custody then all of this evidence can be used to deny custody. If he is denied custody then he still doesn’t know where the mother or child is and won’t be able to hurt them. If even after all of the evidence is introduced he is granted custody then we can say he is not a threat to the child. > [@badbadrubberpiggy](#): > > This I actually don’t know the answer to - If he does have a criminal record, can that be used against him in a trial without his knowledge? Especially if it is a trial concerning him? Heck I don’t even know if we can do this without allowing him to defend himself. My argument would be that while this system isn’t perfect its much better than what we have. CanvasShoes- I am not interested in ‘punishing’ either party or letting one off scot free. I just want the father to know he has a kid so he can pursue custody if he wants. > [@Tinkertoy](#): > > He innocent until proven guilty? But she is guilty until proven innocent? What is she guilty of? I don’t advocate punishing anyone until they are proven guilty in a court of law. ---
**Author:** ![sinjin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@sinjin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinjin)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-hauss-suck-it-up-chickenshit/279802/519 "2004-12-17T00:00:49Z")
Long time thread lurker here. Just a quick question (and I’m hoping for 20 pages, but things are slowing down). Treis: What country do you live in? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2004, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-hauss-suck-it-up-chickenshit/279802/520 "2004-12-17T00:01:30Z")
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