# Hey, is this a racist symbol?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 20, 2000, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719 "2000-10-20T22:47:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2000, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/1 "2000-10-20T22:47:42Z")
Okay, I was thinking about what to get for my fourth tattoo. I thought it would be really cool to get that coiled up snake that appears on the cover of Metallica’s “black” album of 1991. For those unfamiliar with the album or the symbol, it was originally used during the American Revolution, and usually appeared with the slogan “Don’t tread on me.” I thought I would get the slogan as well. Anyway, I showed this symbol to a black friend of mine and told him of my plans. He looked surprised and said “Isn’t that a Confederate symbol? I could’ve sworn they used that during the Civil War.” So NOW I’m a little freaked. I don’t want to get something that could possibly be mistaken as racist. Has anyone ever heard of this symbol having racist connections?? Please help! ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2000, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/2 "2000-10-20T22:49:32Z")
I don’t think you’d be considered racist, but you might looked on as a member of a local militia group. It’s more of an anti-government symbol than a racist symbol. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2000, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/3 "2000-10-20T23:06:09Z")
**BobT** is right. However, some of those militias are racist and antisemetic. The ones around here (Montana) seem to be, at least. So the symbol could be construed as being as racist as the militia groups that use it. ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2000, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/4 "2000-10-20T23:29:14Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Derleth \* > #!/bin/perl -s-- -export-a-crypto-system-sig -RSA-3-lines-PERL > $m=unpack(H.$w,$m "\0"x$w);$\_=`echo"16do$w 2+40i0$d+-^1[d2%Sa 2/d0>X+d*La1=z\U$n%0]SX$k"[$m*]\EszlXx++p|dc`,s/^.|\W//g,print > pack('H_’$\_)while read(STDIN,$m, ($w=2\*$d-1+length($n)&~1)/2) Alright, I give up (granted, I haven’t tried too terribly hard). I consider myself fairly good at reading and generating cryptic perl, but this often used export-a-crypto-system-sig keeps defying casual inspection. By any chance, do you understand it, and would be willing to break it down into a more readable format? ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/5 "2000-10-21T01:08:47Z")
Sorry, Kyber, I honestly don’t understand it any more than you. I’m not a Perl coder. I suspect it’s been condensed so efficiently only a Perl master could grok it. Heck, I’m impressed that someone could fit that functionality into only three lines of actual code! ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Scene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Bob\_Scene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_Scene)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/6 "2000-10-21T01:31:09Z")
Here’s the Anti-Defamation League’s database about hate symbols. Your snake isn’t on their list, but you might be surprised at what is. [http://www.adl.org/frames/front\_hate\_symbols.html](http://www.adl.org/frames/front_hate_symbols.html) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/7 "2000-10-21T14:42:45Z")
I went to the ADL site. The _peace sign_ is a “hate symbol”? > [@](#): > > This symbol was popularized during the Vietnam War era to symbolize peace but it also can signify the defeat of Christianity and the mockery of the cross of Christ. Okay, I remember hearing the “broken cross” theory when I was a kid. But I didn’t buy it then, and I don’t buy it now. Here’s my reasoning: Peace symbols were used bu “hippies”. God-fearing Americans with buzz-cuts and ties, and their wimmin-folk, saw that the hippies didn’t buy into their morality. They equated the hippie lifestyle with “sin”, and came up with an interpretation of the peace sign after it already existed and contrary to its intent. AFAIK, the peace sign was never used by its users as a symbol of hate, but was interpreted by The Establisment-types as a hate symbol to fit into _thier_ “hatred” of the “hippie movement”. To me, the peace sign looks like the foot print of a dove – a Christian symbol of peace and love. (WARNING: This post is being made before my caffeine fix.) ---
**Author:** ![Minxsmom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d07c76/32.png) [@Minxsmom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Minxsmom)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/8 "2000-10-21T14:57:43Z")
The “Peace” sign is also the rune EOLH (the rune of protection) in a reversed position with a circle around it. Here is the info on the rune. It is available in many places, but I happened to get it this time from this site: [http://www.olivialeigh.com/](http://www.olivialeigh.com/) AKA: Algiz, Elhaz Eolh means protection. This is a very positive and protective sign. Temptation is resisted and new beginnings are possible. There are fortunate new influences in your life with friendships, romances, and your career. You have made a willing sacrifice that has paid off. New relationships based on friendship and trust will enliven you. You are offered safety and victory during a battle or struggle. You have discovered your safe place. No life is without pain, but if you can learn from the pain and support those around you the rewards will be great. ``` REVERSED ``` There is a new danger to your life. Keep your back against a wall and do not allow yourself to become vulnerable. Trust no one. Someone is trying to take advantage of you or sacrifice you for their own needs. Beware of unsuccessful or unscrupulous business dealings. Do not let greed destroy you. ---
**Author:** ![rngadam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/97f17d/32.png) [@rngadam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rngadam)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/9 "2000-10-21T15:04:49Z")
I was rather surprised myself to see the Anarchist sign on ADL list of “hate symbol”. Frankly, I had never seen it associated with racism and it put it doubt the other symbols on the page… ---
**Author:** ![scratch1300](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@scratch1300](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch1300)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/10 "2000-10-21T15:12:15Z")
In defense of the ADL, I wouldn’t suppose they thought the anarchy or peace symbol to be racist _per se_, but like some other things (e.g., shaving one’s head, wearing Doc Martens, etc.) _might_ be a warning sign in conjunction with other, less innocuous behaviors. ---
**Author:** ![Minxsmom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d07c76/32.png) [@Minxsmom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Minxsmom)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/11 "2000-10-21T15:24:57Z")
The _ **Celtic Cross** _ and the _ **Runes** _ are racist? It’s bad enough that they lump the Wheel of the Sun in with that aberration of Hitler’s, but give me a break. Did you read their reasoning for the Celtic Cross and the Runes? Because some skinheaded dodos decided to take up a religion, that automatically makes it a “racist” religion and therefore anything to do with that religion is racist? Expect to see the Cross and the Star of David on there any day now. Crap like that just ticks me off - as if there isn’t enough fear and tension and hate stuff going on already - do they have to read into everything and make it mean that you hate someone else? Is anything safe? Next thing you know, me wearing my claddaugh is going to mean that I’m an Irish Supremist and I hate everyone else. (I do, but that’s beside the point ;)) ---
**Author:** ![Diceman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/12 "2000-10-21T15:27:37Z")
The Anti-defamation League is stretching things pretty thin by listing the peace sign and the anarchy symbol as “symbols of hate.” I’m waiting for them to list the smiley face. And the Celtic cross? Please. It was a respected Christian symbol centuries before some hate group piked it up. The Confederate flag is a debatable inclusion, since altough some hate groups use it, most of the people who fly it consider it a cultural/ethnic symbol. (If you want to argue the “What does the Confederate flag stand for?” question, please open another thread so this one doesn’t get hijacked. Preferably in Great Debates, where I won’t have to read it 😛 ) ---
**Author:** ![Minxsmom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d07c76/32.png) [@Minxsmom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Minxsmom)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/13 "2000-10-21T15:36:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by scratch1300 \* > \*\*In defense of the ADL, I wouldn’t suppose they thought the anarchy or peace symbol to be racist _per se_, but like some other things (e.g., shaving one’s head, wearing Doc Martens, etc.) _might_ be a warning sign in conjunction with other, less innocuous behaviors. \*\* scratch, I can see your point. However, someone without your power of reasoning is going to read that page, and someone like myself, wearing my Celtic Cross, Peace Sign, or other various Runes jewelry is going to get hurt for being something they’re not. I’m flaky, not racist. ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/14 "2000-10-21T16:14:41Z")
IIRC, Bertand Russell popularized the “peace sign” as a take-off of the semaphore positions for N and D, or nuclear disarmamant. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/15 "2000-10-21T16:25:43Z")
Maybe when they say “racist symbol” they mean "Symbol known to be used by a racist group. For example, the Celtic Cross is used by some white power groups (which I found out from clicking on it), the Swastika is used by Nazis…neither the Celtic Cross or Swastika are themselves racist symbols…but they’ve become associated with racist groups. ---
**Author:** ![mobo85](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b19c9b/32.png) [@mobo85](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mobo85)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/16 "2000-10-21T18:13:48Z")
As far as I know, the don’t tread on me snake was used during the American Revolution, not the Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/17 "2000-10-21T18:31:38Z")
[Cecil’s description of the Peace Symbol (with one loon’s repy).](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_149.html) I’d go with **Captain Amazing** ’s thought. The ADL is displaying symbols _that have been used or interpreted in hateful ways_. I think the ADL is pushing it with the Peace Symbol (I doubt that many skinheads are actually wearing peace symbols to taunt Christians), but the Celtic Cross has become an actively displayed sign for several British outfits. I would guess that the idea would be to include various designs so that if one shows up as graffiti in your neighborhood, (or your kid’s notebook), you could look around to see if there are other indicators of a problem, as well. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/18 "2000-10-21T19:23:50Z")
To answer the OP. It could be seen that way, it isn’t, but you know, everyone’s so up on their history these days :rolleyes: To be safe, you might want to get “Mettalica” in big red gothic letters behind it, or go out and create your own coiled snake symbol that doesn’t look like the don’t tread on my flag. BTW, SF fly’s that flag along with a number of other historical ones in front of the capitol. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/19 "2000-10-21T19:25:39Z")
Although you probably will get less laughs and derision pointed your way if you get “Metallica” tattooed instead. Stupid scratch ---
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/20 "2000-10-21T19:52:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by oldscratch \* > **To answer the OP. It could be seen that way, it isn’t, but you know, everyone’s so up on their history these days :rolleyes: To be safe, you might want to get “Mettalica” in big red gothic letters behind it** Actually, I’m not THAT big a Metallica fan. I just like the symbol, and the rebellious spirit it evokes. I can see why some militia groups have co-opted this symbol. Not only is it very potent visually, but it has historical significance that gives it even more weight. This has turned out to be a very interesting thread. Thanks to everyone for your thoughts. I’m going to go check out that ADL site now. At this juncture I’m thinking it might be better to avoid getting a tattoo that has even the slightest chance of being misunderstood. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719.md?page=2)