# Hey, is this a racist symbol?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 20, 2000, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719 "2000-10-20T22:47:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/21 "2000-10-21T20:03:45Z")
Have you seen my tattoo? I think it’s up somewhere. I was once asked if I was a Nazi because of it. If you see it you’ll understand. Every tattoo has the oportunity to be misunderstood, some more than others. The idea of a coiled snake ready to strike is cool, I’m just suggesting that you get a tattoo of one that doesn’t look like the flag. And btw, what are your other tattoos? ---
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/22 "2000-10-21T21:14:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by oldscratch \* > \*\*And btw, what are your other tattoos? \*\* I have a small black dragon in the shape of an “S” with a red head on my inside right forearm. I have a pointed cross on my left bicep that is just line work. (It was my first) And I just recently got a five-color Aztec bird on my right bicep. It’s still peeling. I think you’re right about changing the design. I’m not an artist though, so getting the design I want drawn could be problematic. What exactly does your tattoo look like? ---
**Author:** ![barton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@barton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barton)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/23 "2000-10-21T22:43:08Z")
[http://www.greatseal.com/symbols/rattlesnake.html](http://www.greatseal.com/symbols/rattlesnake.html) The above link is Ben Franklin himself describing the ‘Don’t Tread On Me’ symbol in question. Given his positive review of it as a better symbol of America than the bald eagle, which he thought didn’t make its living honestly. 😉 I would say it’s rather patriotic. ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/24 "2000-10-21T23:35:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lizard \* > \*\* > I think you’re right about changing the design. I’m not an artist though, so getting the design I want drawn could be problematic. > > What exactly does your tattoo look like? \*\* If you go to a good tatto artist, they will be more than willing to work with you on the design. You can take some preliminary sketches, maybe a picture from national geographic or something, tell em what you want, they’ll flesh it out. As for my tattoo. [http://www.lava.net/~lani/sfdopefest/pages/bar1\_jpg.htm](http://www.lava.net/~lani/sfdopefest/pages/bar1_jpg.htm) It’s a red band with a black star. On the otherside is a square surrounded by a circle, it also has some little points. Somehow, someone asked if I was a Nazi, I said no it’s not a Nazi symbol. They said, well you could get a swastika in that square or something (it does kinda look like a frame). :rolleyes: go figure. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/25 "2000-10-21T23:45:54Z")
No one’s provided the link yet? [http://members.nbci.com/dopetats/index.html](http://members.nbci.com/dopetats/index.html) I figure I’ll have to take the plunge soon, myself. I just can never make up my mind. But if oldscratch is offering his services as a tattoo consultant… Of course, he’d probably try to sneak some socialist propaganda into it ;). Maybe I’ll start an MPSIMS thread volunteering him for the role. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/26 "2000-10-22T00:19:38Z")
I read Cecil’s response in the link provided above. He mentions: > [@](#): > > One Bircher wrote that the broken cross had originally been devised by the Roman emperor Nero, who had Saint Peter crucified upon it upside down. In the Middle Ages the symbol allegedly was used to signify the devil. I thought that St. Peter _requested_ to be crucified upside-down (since he was going to be crucified anyway) because he felt he was not worthy to be crucified rightside-up, like Christ? Or am I paying too much attention to A&E? ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/27 "2000-10-22T01:27:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by waterj2 \* > \*\*But if oldscratch is offering his services as a tattoo consultant… \*\* May I recomend a clenched fist, it’s a symbol of libertarianism. Or maybe a half-red half-black star? Also a libertarian symbol. 🙂 My main recomendations for tattos are to design em yourself. In this age of Illustrator, photoshop, and painter, there really isn’t an excuse not to. and you’ll feel pretty cool having your own artwork on your body. Me, I’m looking at getting either a Miro or a Lewitt piece tattoed on my back. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/28 "2000-10-22T04:29:58Z")
The way I heard it, the peace sign represents semaphore for “N” (neuclear), and “D” (disarmament}. Could be. See for tourself; [http://www.m-w.com/mw/art/semaphor.htm](http://www.m-w.com/mw/art/semaphor.htm) Peace, mangeorge ---
**Author:** ![evilbeth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/evilbeth/32/2268_2.png) [@evilbeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/evilbeth)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/29 "2000-10-22T05:40:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\* > I’d go with **Captain Amazing** ’s thought. The ADL is displaying symbols _that have been used or interpreted in hateful ways_. I think the ADL is pushing it with the Peace Symbol (I doubt that many skinheads are actually wearing peace symbols to taunt Christians), but the Celtic Cross has become an actively displayed sign for several British outfits. > \*\* Well, not to add to the hijack in progress, but if that’s all they are doing, then where is the traditional, upright Christian cross? Doesn’t burning those in people’s yards classify as being used in a hateful way? ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 8:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/30 "2000-10-22T08:13:30Z")
Re. Celtic Cross used by “several British oufits” - Oh,really? I assume from the context that these “British oufits” are racist groups. Of course I would find that abhorrent in the extreme, but I wonder how much truth there is behind that assertion. I am not so far aware of a Celtic Cross symbol being taken over by that type of group, and I certainly hope that such will not be the case in future. Thus far, thankfully, I have not observed this phenomenon, and I hope never so do to. What “British outfits” (oh, it so difficult not to spell it as misfits) and where are they? ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/31 "2000-10-22T08:52:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Celyn \* > \*\*Re. Celtic Cross used by “several British oufits” - Oh,really? I assume from the context that these “British oufits” are racist groups. Of course I would find that abhorrent in the extreme, but I wonder how much truth there is behind that assertion. \*\* I don’t know about English misfits but here in the United States some of our misfits use them. The Ku Klux Klan uses them, or at least they used to, on banners and publications. Marc ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/32 "2000-10-22T13:25:26Z")
Anybody who is offended by the **Celtic Cross** should stay away from Ireland. It is a very popular chain decoration and there are Celtic Crosses all over the place over here. I live beside a 12ft one. ---
**Author:** ![Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chance_the_Gardener)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/33 "2000-10-22T15:07:44Z")
The _Don’t tread on me_ snake was one of the flags used by the Americans in the Revolutionary War when no one had yet agreed on the national flag. The choice of the snake inferred that we would strike at the heel of any enemy that tried to tromp on us. Then Betsy Ross ran out of red and white fabric so she couldn’t finish that slip she was sewing, so she threw a blue patch to plug the gap and donated it to a rummage sale. Then, the legend has it, George Washington dropped in at the Valley Forge Salvation Army to pick up some coats for his freezing troops, ran across the discarded slip, and the rest, they say, is history. (Never mind what Washington was doing checking out women’s clothes; that’s a whole other thread.) Anyhow, don’t worry about the snake flag—it’s not a racist symbol. I guess racist symbols are merely what people turn them into, though. The original skinheads were actually leftists, but the look was coöpted by right-wing thugs, so the idea of the skinhead thus lost all association with leftist thought. Further, there’s the swastika, which was used as a fertility symbol by the ancient Celts and as something much the same by the Hopi Indians. In the 1920s, the Boy Scouts of America even had something called the Order of the Swastika (I’m not kidding!) which was changed to the Order of the Arrow once the United States went to war with Germany. The Order of the Arrow persists to this day in scouting, though its history is seldom discussed, despite the fact that its origin was not the least bit racist. I say you should go ahead and adorn your body with whatever symbols you like, but make sure you know what you’re putting on your body beforehand. I mean damn, it could look pretty, but I don’t imagine you want to discover you’ve turned yourself into a walking advertisement for fascism after the fact. Perhaps it’s also worth considering that some people might take certain symbols very seriously and wouldn’t like to see them worn this way. I realize that consideration for others with no immediate personal gain in mind isn’t exactly trendy these days, but I think that’s a worthwhile consideration. (Okay, you reactionaries; go ahead and call me “politically correct,” whatever the hell that means.) ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Zero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c4cdca/32.png) [@Saint\_Zero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Zero)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/34 "2000-10-22T15:16:44Z")
I recall that one Japanese Manga book had a main character who wore the original symbol the Nazi’s reversed and used. They had to explain in the front of every book that it wasn’t what you thought, it’d been in Asia for centuries, ect ect… Everything is going to turn into a hate symbol one of these days. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/35 "2000-10-22T15:26:09Z")
> [@](#): > > I recall that one Japanese Manga book had a main character who wore the original symbol the Nazi’s reversed and used. They had to explain in the front of every book that it wasn’t what you thought, it’d been in Asia for centuries, ect ect… I ran into the same thing at the Carlsberg brewery in Copenhagen. (Take the tour, get free beer!) The tour guide took great pains to point out that the swastikas that adorned their elephant sculptures were of ancient Indian origin and had nothing to do with the Nazi party. ---
**Author:** ![Lizard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dfb087/32.png) [@Lizard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lizard)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/36 "2000-10-22T16:09:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chance the Gardener \* > \*\*The original skinheads were actually leftists, but the look was coöpted by right-wing thugs, so the idea of the skinhead thus lost all association with leftist thought. \*\* Really?! How long ago are we talking here? When did the conversion to right-wingism begin? ---
**Author:** ![oldscratch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ed655f/32.png) [@oldscratch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oldscratch)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/37 "2000-10-22T19:00:29Z")
I would actually like to clarrify what CtheG said. The original skinheads were a working-class movement in England, or more precisely a wanna-be working class movement. They fetsishized working class ideas, working class beliefs, so on. This involved some left-wong some right wing (anti-immigration) ideas. There are still plenty of left-wng skinheads. SHARP being a big one. Skin-heads against racial prejudice. There are also left-wing and right-wing mods. There are different ways to tell which beliefs someone holds. Sometimes, it has to do with the color they lace their boots. This varies from country to country. Tattoos, and various buttons are usually the best way though. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2000, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/38 "2000-10-22T19:35:17Z")
> [@](#): > > What “British outfits” (oh, it so difficult not to spell it as misfits) and where are they? From the ADL link, above: > [@](#): > > First popularized by the Ku Klux Klan, the symbol was later adopted by the National Front in England, and other racists such as Don Black on his Web site Stormfront, and the racist band Skrewdriver. The ADL site claims that the KKK were the first users. The National Front has placed it in a black ring with the words “White Pride World Wide” around it. Since I have never seen the symbol used by the Klan, I made the guess that it had a rather brief usage before being borrowed by the National Front. There are two smaller groups that I have seen use it, but I am not that familiar with British hate groups and they could have been simply fringe elements of or chapters of the National Front–reducing the “British outfits” to only one. It should be noted that the symbol displayed (on both examples in the link) is not truly a celtic cross, but simply a greek cross with the circle surrounding the intersection of the horizontal and vertical lines. A true celtic cross is a latin cross (i.e., a cross in which the horizontal line is nearer the top) with the inscribed circle or, in many cases, a cross similar to the latin cross, but in which the upright widens gradually from the cross-piece to the base. Neither of the symbols used by the haters meets the description of a celtic cross. ---
**Author:** ![scratch1300](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dfb087/32.png) [@scratch1300](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scratch1300)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2000, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719/39 "2000-10-24T15:11:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Celyn \* > \*\*What “British outfits” (oh, it so difficult not to spell it as misfits) and where are they? \*\* \*\*Celyn, [here](http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/third-position/index.html) are misfits enough for you. I hope they don’t ruin the Celtic cross like Hitler ruined the swastika… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-is-this-a-racist-symbol/37719.md?page=1)