# "Hey, Karl! Karl Marx! What have you been up to? I've not seen you since 1989!" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 12, 2007, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500 "2007-10-12T19:39:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500/1 "2007-10-12T19:39:10Z")
Just curious - what’s the standing of Marxism nowadays? Does it still have any legs as an economic/political theory with any academics or political types? Or has it withered away with the fall of the USSR? I know that China is technically Marxist, but once Deng said, “To get rich is glorious,” I think they kinda jumped the shark. So, is there anywhere that the Marxist theory still is in vogue, other than Cuba and Vietnam? ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500/2 "2007-10-12T19:47:20Z")
What about the Sendero Luminoso in (I think) Peru? And isn’t there a Maoist rebel group in Nepal? Hmm. Is Cuba actually “Marxist”? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500/3 "2007-10-12T19:53:31Z")
I think Sendero Luminos is Maoist, which I guess is a sub-set of Marxism - but is there any likelihood that they’ll be able to put their ideas into operation? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500/4 "2007-10-12T20:05:41Z")
[QUOTE=Northern Piper] So, is there anywhere that the Marxist theory still is in vogue, other than Cuba and Vietnam? [/QUOTE] I think you could add North Korea. ---
**Author:** ![CateAyo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@CateAyo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CateAyo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500/5 "2007-10-12T20:44:07Z")
I would consider “Marxism” a misnomer when used to describe any governmental structure. I would include Bolshevik Russia in that as well. Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin corrupted the premise in the Soviet Union. Mao did the same in China. I believe that the representative governments that we see today are more accurately defined as Maoist or Stalinist. I don’t have a cite handy, but Marx, toward the end of his life saw his view of utopia being corrupted and said something to the effect, “Is this is Marxism, I am not a Marxist”. I know these are all quibbling points but still, there is nothing resembling Marxism in the way these governments have operated. They have largely supplanted one powered elite with another. (“Meet the new boss, the same as the old boss”) Thanks Hawk ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500/6 "2007-10-12T20:50:13Z")
The governments of the Indian states of West Bengal and Kerala are run by the freely elected Communist Party of India (Marxist), which has “Marx” in the name. ---
**Author:** ![CateAyo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@CateAyo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CateAyo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500/7 "2007-10-12T21:22:07Z")
[QUOTE=acsenray] The governments of the Indian states of West Bengal and Kerala are run by the freely elected Communist Party of India (Marxist), which has “Marx” in the name. [/QUOTE] Thank you. I will look into those governments. However, I have found that the existence of a reference to Marx or Marxism, when used by a government is not necessarily accurate. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500/8 "2007-10-12T21:32:53Z")
[QUOTE=Northern Piper] So, is there anywhere that the Marxist theory still is in vogue, other than Cuba and Vietnam? [/QUOTE] This is about the Saskatchewan election, the NDP, and the Regina Manifesto, isn’t it? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500/9 "2007-10-12T21:37:07Z")
[QUOTE=CateAyo] Thank you. I will look into those governments. However, I have found that the existence of a reference to Marx or Marxism, when used by a government is not necessarily accurate. [/QUOTE] Usually about as accurate as when they use the term Democratic (see “German Democratic Republic”, i.e. East Germany). ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500/10 "2007-10-12T21:44:44Z")
There are Maoist rebels in Nepal. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2007, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500/11 "2007-10-12T21:56:37Z")
[QUOTE=Sunspace] What about the Sendero Luminoso in (I think) Peru? And isn’t there a Maoist rebel group in Nepal? Hmm. Is Cuba actually “Marxist”? [/QUOTE] Yes, Cuba’s government is self-defined as Marxist. From the preamble to the Cuban constitution: " GUIADOS por el ideario de José Martí y las ideas político-sociales de Marx, Engels y Lenin;" translated: "GUIDED by the ideology of Jose Marti and the socio-political ideas of Marx, Engels and Lenin;" [Link.](http://www.gacetaoficial.cu/constitucion.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2007, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500/12 "2007-10-13T00:02:54Z")
The Marxist idea that History is guided by Economic events & trends is alive & well. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2007, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500/13 "2007-10-13T00:49:37Z")
[QUOTE=CateAyo] Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin corrupted the premise in the Soviet Union. Mao did the same in China. [/QUOTE] Marxists are fond of saying this whenever someone points out that Marxism has been the proximate cause of some of the worst failures of the 20th Century. The problem with these statements is that it’s shifting the goalposts: Those countries were indeed founded on a Marxist footing and Marxists then accepted them as such. Claiming they were not Marxist now that they have failed is redefining your terms midstream and is fundamentally dishonest. > [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > The Marxist idea that History is guided by Economic events & trends is alive & well. Marxist Economic Determinism predicted that the governments of the world would wither and die once the Revolution had been stabilized and the Proletariat empowered. Needless to say, Marxist Economic Determinism is a crock of fragrant shit. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2007, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500/14 "2007-10-13T02:47:51Z")
Heck, I don’t think Marx is even covered in school anymore in China. You can rarely find a Mao statue, and I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen a Marx one here. (do have one of Pushkin in my neighborhood for some unknown reason.) You’ll still see a little bit of lip service to Marxist-Leninist-Mao Zedong thought by Rolex sporting bourgoise in the back of an imported BMW while the driver is taking them to a 5-star hotel for a round of karaoke and hookers. Not sure if that counts though. ---
**Author:** ![intention](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e95f7d/32.png) [@intention](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/intention)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2007, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500/15 "2007-10-13T03:02:00Z")
[QUOTE=China Guy] Heck, I don’t think Marx is even covered in school anymore in China. You can rarely find a Mao statue, and I can’t remember the last time I’ve seen a Marx one here. (do have one of Pushkin in my neighborhood for some unknown reason.) You’ll still see a little bit of lip service to Marxist-Leninist-Mao Zedong thought by Rolex sporting bourgoise in the back of an imported BMW while the driver is taking them to a 5-star hotel for a round of karaoke and hookers. Not sure if that counts though. [/QUOTE] I think most of the few surviving Marxists are now in the Liberal Arts section of Duke University, where they use their positions for important social actions like attacking evil lacrosse players … w. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2007, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500/16 "2007-10-13T03:31:08Z")
> [@](#): > > What about the Sendero Luminoso in (I think) Peru? And isn’t there a Maoist rebel group in Nepal? I don’t think you can hold groups like these to the same standard as actual governments. They’re trying to establish a theoretically Marxist state but haven’t done so. The Soviet Union had sixty years to build a Marxist government - if it was unable to do so, there’s a fair indictment against Marxism (as are similar failures in other countries). But you can’t fairly call a regime a failure before it actually had a chance to run things. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2007, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500/17 "2007-10-13T05:00:37Z")
As far as being a theory goes, Marxism is today regarded as a fascinating, thought-provoking theory whose predictions were pretty much dead wrong. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2007, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500/18 "2007-10-13T05:04:22Z")
[QUOTE=Lumpy] As far as being a theory goes, Marxism is today regarded as a fascinating, thought-provoking theory whose predictions were pretty much dead wrong. [/QUOTE] Not unlike neoconservatism… ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2007, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500/19 "2007-10-13T05:32:17Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] Not unlike neoconservatism… [/QUOTE] To be fair, the Neocons haven’t had nearly as long as the Marxists did to prove their worth. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2007, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500/20 "2007-10-13T12:10:06Z")
[QUOTE=Derleth] Marxist Economic Determinism predicted that the governments of the world would wither and die once the Revolution had been stabilized and the Proletariat empowered. Needless to say, Marxist Economic Determinism is a crock of fragrant shit. [/QUOTE] Yet the Marxist doctrine that states that all war is fought for economic reasons is clearly correct. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-karl-karl-marx-what-have-you-been-up-to-ive-not-seen-you-since-1989/422500.md?page=2)