# Hey, Korea's winning, so it has to be shitty refs or foul play! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 24, 2002, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636 "2002-06-24T02:08:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2002, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636/21 "2002-06-24T11:19:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RedFury \* > **2. Three minutes in extra time Spain has a wonderful goal called back (the whistle blew as the ball was going in the net) for the ball going over the touchline. The ball didn’t even COME CLOSE to going over the touchline on Joaquin’s great run. Morientes crushed the header into net.** Yes, but only because the whistle blew right before he headed, not when the ball hit the net. C’mon, no one’s gonna dispute the fact that the ball never crossed the line before Joaquin passed it, but don’t misrepresent the facts to make it look like a goal. It wasn’t - the SK goalie relaxed upon hearing the whistle. It **could** have been a hell of a scoring chance had play continued without interruption, yes. The problem with this world cup is again FIFA. They’re trying to be “politically correct” by pleasing all the smaller countries in the world. Awarding them linesman positions and whatnot. Obviously, a lot of the linesmen and some of the refs clearly lack experience at top level. But hey, if you vote for the re-election of Uncle Sepp, you can send a linesman to the world cup! THAT’s what’s wrong. It’s not a conspiracy set up to only benefit South Korea, although I’ll be the first to admit that SK have had a disproportionally large amount of dubious calls in their advantage. That does **not** mean that SK doesn’t deserve where they stand right now. Sure, Spain was the better team, but for various reasons, the better team didn’t win. This happens - and it’s bitter when bad refereeing calls play a role in this. Bitter, but not a conspiracy. And not a reason to put an entire country down. From [UEFA’s minute-by-minute report on the Spain - Korea match](http://www.uefa.com/competitions/WorldCup/FixturesResults/Round=1575/Match=69682/mbm.html): > [@](#): > > 17’ Baraja’s bicycle kick goes just wide. > > 22’ Hierro’s free-kick is blocked by the Korean wall. From the rebound the Korean defence is quick to block a Morientes snap shot. > > 24’ Javier De Pedro’s curling free-kick is punched clear by Woon-Jae Lee. > > 27’ Woon-Jae Lee gratefully clutches Morientes’ well-directed header after De Pedro’s free-kick. > > 31’ Hierro’s header loops over the bar. > > 42’ Joaquín Sánchez’s tantalising cross is just too quick for Morientes. > > 43’ Superb footwork by Valerón sees him motor towards the Korean goal, but his pass to Romero finds the defender offside. > > 45’ Joaquín Sánchez goes on a wonderful, dribbling run that Korea manage to clear. De Pedro then shoots just narrowly wide. > > 45’+4’ The first period ends with Spain very much on top. I can do the second half too, if this isn’t convincing enough. But to me, this looks like an excellent Spanish side unable to capitalise on its possibilities, partially due to an outstanding South Korean goalie. Blame the ref (the field ref was _excellent_, BTW) all you want, the fact remains that Spain had plenty of good chances during normal play, and they didn’t manage to score a goal - not one. I know how this feels, man. My country’s team has played many matches like that, against opponents you’d assert to be even less threatening than South Korea. But it happens, and a real man will -if need be- curse at his own team as much as he will at the opponent, or the ref. I look forward to a Dutch - Spanish encounter in Portugal, in two years time. It’s gonna kick ass. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Tansu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/67e7ee/32.png) [@Tansu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tansu)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2002, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636/22 "2002-06-24T11:47:07Z")
Having reflected on this for a while, I think **Coldfire** is right. It’s much more likely to be down to the fact that a lot of the linesmen just aren’t up to the job, rather than a sinister conspiracy theory. This is what you get if you allow linesmen and refs from very inferior footballing nations to officiate in the World Cup. The linesmen from that match were from what - Trinidad, and Uganda. Uganda isn’t in the top five African football nations. I don’t think there’s any way that an official from Uganda could have the necessary experience of top level games. The best football is played in the Spanish, Italian, English, German, Dutch, French, Brazilian and Argentine leagues, by players of various nationalities. The officials should come from those leagues as far as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Zoff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/6de8d8/32.png) [@Zoff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoff)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2002, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636/23 "2002-06-24T11:56:35Z")
I agree with **Tansu**. There isn’t a conspiracy, it’s simply incompetence. FIFA has reached a new low when the linesman (and I refuse to call them Assistant Referees) are unable to tell whether a ball is out of bounds. That ball wasn’t really even close. The other issue is offside. You can argue that it’s a tough call to make, but some of the bad calls have come on 5 yard passes where the linesman should be able to see both players. Add to that the fact that they are supposed to err on the side of offense and I think the officiating has been a disaster. They need to use refs as linesmen and take them from countries where the highest level of soccer is played. A linesman from Trinidad & Tobago is going to get possibly one or two qualifiers before a World Cup and absolutely no high level club games to officiate. Some of these linesmen simply aren’t up to the task. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2002, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636/24 "2002-06-24T12:12:35Z")
I don’t really have a view on this except to note that it wouldn’t take an awful lot of money to buy a potentially bent linesman from a particularly poor country. Not saying that’s what happened here, but stranger things have happened. Especially when large sums of money have been wagered. ---
**Author:** ![Astroboy14](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/df705f/32.png) [@Astroboy14](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astroboy14)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2002, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636/25 "2002-06-24T12:35:37Z")
My two cents: The irony here is beautiful! I’ve been hearing Koreans whine about Kim Dong Sung/Apollo Ohno for months… it’s kind funny seeing the tables turned on them. Having said that… I think it would be kind of neat to see Korea win… sure would make **Astrogirl** happy! ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2002, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636/26 "2002-06-24T12:49:30Z")
I think you’ll find it’s all actually my fault for not being interested in football, at least that’s what it seemed like when I went into work on Friday and showed a lack of disappointment (in England’s failure) that was roughly equivalent to my lack of excitement on Thursday(that there is a World Cup tournament). ---
**Author:** ![Fugazi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f08c70/32.png) [@Fugazi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fugazi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2002, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636/27 "2002-06-24T13:34:41Z")
Quick question **Astroboy** since your there and I’m not. Yes, the shoe is on the other foot for the Koreans. Are they acknowledging that fact or are they mostly ignoring it? ---
**Author:** ![non-native](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/bc8723/32.png) [@non-native](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/non-native)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2002, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636/28 "2002-06-24T13:45:18Z")
**Fugazi** I’m there (here) too and I happen to be Korean, so I might be able to answer your question. If only i knew what “shoe is on the other foot” meant, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2002, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636/29 "2002-06-24T13:58:23Z")
It means, “Do the Koreans recognize they have been very fortunate in some of the dubious calls that have gone their way? Do they recognize the irony in how they howled about being wronged in the speed-skating fiasco, and now are benefitting from a somewhat similar set of circumstances?” The one that is really hard to swallow from the Spain game is the ball allegedly over the end line. Non-native is right on that one. It wasn’t even close. I don’t think even a portion of the ball was _on_ the line, let alone over it. And I don’t know how a ref could fuck up a call like that. As for offsides, I don’t know how they get so many of them _right_, as the play is moving so quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Fugazi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f08c70/32.png) [@Fugazi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fugazi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2002, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636/30 "2002-06-24T13:58:47Z")
Well, during the Apollo Ohno controversy, a judgment call went against the Korean skater and the Koreans were (and still are) pissed. Now some judgment calls are going for them. So, what’s the general feeling there? Do they recognize the similarity of the situations, or are they ignoring that Spain was the victim of some bad calls? This is my last post for a bit. My shift is over & I’m going home to sleep. ---
**Author:** ![Fugazi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f08c70/32.png) [@Fugazi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fugazi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2002, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636/31 "2002-06-24T14:00:35Z")
Oooh, **Milo** beat me to it & said it much better. Yea Yea, what he said. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2002, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636/32 "2002-06-24T14:01:11Z")
I **non-native** , Poor baby. Your national pride’s wounded 'cause your team cheated their way to the semifinal? Boo-fucking-hoo! Your whole OP reeks. If anyone should be playing the victim it’s the teams **that got shafted** and not the ‘poor little Koreans that get no respect from the international football community.’ And don’t bother to ‘address’ those blatant favors Korea got, they are well documented on video – trying to spin them is only going to make you look dumber than you already have. BTW, _“Joaquin’s fake or limp or whatever the hell he did”_, is called a _paradinha_, and it’s a classic Brazilian move, credited to Pele, that’s been around for over 30 years. it’s legal and the rules still apply: the keeper can’t move from his line until the ball’s struck. Should have watched a bit more footy before jumping on the bandwagon, pal. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2002, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636/33 "2002-06-24T14:37:43Z")
Coldfire, I’m a veteran of nine World Cups --and have faint memories of '66 – and have attended two of them live (Spain '82, USA '94) no doubt each one of them has had its share of controversial calls. _However_, prior to this one, the only one that left a stench in my nostrils was Argentina '78. I think the political climate there at the time made the Argie victory almost unavoidable. In both, the Peru match and the very final Vs your Oranje, the atmosphere was rarefied to say the least. And although they’ve tried being quell the bribery allegations made by the Peruvian goalie (originally, an Argentinean national) after the fact, I think most of us that remember that tournament will always feel Argentina couldn’t have done it without the help. Again, there have been controversial calls throughout the years, The Hand Of God in '86, Tassotti’s non-call when he broke Luis Enrique’s nose in '94, Morocco cruel exit in '98, etc., etc. **But** what I’ve never seen is a team that was _rightfully and clearly eliminated twice_ in the knockout stages, go on in the tournament. N-e-v-e-r. I am crying “conspiracy”? Well, being about as skeptical as they come, I’d have to see some solid evidence before I do. Meanwhile I can only chalk it up to ineptitude on the part of FIFA and their refereeing choices and hope our sport can recover and learn from it. OTOH, I can’t help but feel that the results in general have been a bit too pat and although Blatter has strangely come out and criticized the refs, the economic success of this Cup is guaranteed – which goes a long way in solving FIFA’s financial quagmire. Guess what I think he cares more about? Lastly, I’ve seen the replay of Morientes goal enough times to tell you I disagree with your assessment that Koreans ‘stopped playing,’ the whistle didn’t go off until the cross was already in the air and what you saw was a keeper unable to react in time due to the speed of the play. Happens all the time. _However_, let’s say that I agree with you for one sec…that still leaves you with the problem presented by our _first_ goal, to this day, no one knows why it was called back. Some are claiming offside, while others talk about shirt pulling…and the **video** shows neither! Did we finish all of our chances? Obviously not, what team does? But the fact remains, that even without our star in the game, Raul, we **beat** Korea fair and square, on the pitch and in the scoreboard. Whether FIFA and Korean fans want to accept it or not, is none of my business and quite frankly, at this point, I don’t give a shit either. The world knows it and that’s enough for me. So, **non-native** , quit your pathetic whining and go wrap yourself in one of those red rags…it’ll be a looooong time before you’ll “beat” Italy and Spain again. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2002, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636/34 "2002-06-24T14:44:46Z")
**RedFury** , just how did South Korea “cheat”? They were on the right side of a few dubious calls, yes. How is that cheating? I feel for the Spanish team, but _you_ are a supporter I’m increasingly less sympathetic towards. Direct your anger to those who caused the poor level of refereeing in the first place. Hint: it’s not the South Korean football team. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2002, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636/35 "2002-06-24T15:41:47Z")
Vey well, **Coldfire**. The Korean team are angels without halos. As for ‘feeling less sympathetifc’ towards me, I think it highly irrelevant to the issue at hand, namely this farce of a tournament. But hey! Go right ahead…it’s not sympathy I’m after. Although it’s too bad you chose not to address all the other points raised in my previous post. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2002, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636/36 "2002-06-24T16:08:54Z")
**RedFury** get a grip will ya. A very bad call lead to your team getting screwed. You aren’t the first you won’t be the last. Now grow a pair and stop acting like a fucking child. I guarantee that if Spain had of been on the other side of that call you wouldn’t be as adamant about it. There’s a thread knocking around here about the worst bad call ever. Have a read of it. You’re not on your own. Bad luck but them’s the breaks. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2002, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636/37 "2002-06-24T16:57:10Z")
Luck? Grow up? Why, thanx, **yojimbo** , I feel much better now. Why didn’t I think of that before? :smack: However, about this “guarantee” of yours…perhaps you’d care to drop in by [\*\*my football forum](http://worldcrossing.com/WebX?14@173.uzeVdamiP1W.113@.eef1e9b)\*\*? Because if you do, you’ll see that I was just as **adamant** about the state of this World Cup after the Italy debacle. I said as much _prior_ to our match with Korea. That it happened _again_, IMO and many more worldwide, has only stressed the credibilty of the game beyond its breaking point. TTFN ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2002, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636/38 "2002-06-24T17:36:10Z")
Get a grip, RedFury. It’s just a game. It was poorly officiated. Likely, poor officiating cost Spain and a bunch of other teams their place in the bracket. It’s happened before. It’ll happen again. If you want to lay blame, blame UEFA and the European clubs for not letting their players get any rest before the World Cup. Blame FIFA for bringing in incompetent refs. Don’t blame the South Korean team or call them cheaters. They haven’t done anything wrong. They haven’t been playing dirty or anything. Geez. ---
**Author:** ![Estilicon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/848f3c/32.png) [@Estilicon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Estilicon)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2002, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636/39 "2002-06-24T18:04:16Z")
Non- native. I agree with you and I hope that you win this World Cup, god knows you have “invested” a lot in it 🙂 This has to be the worst World Cup ever, I can’t believe the incredible amount “mistakes” that have happened. Your match against Spain was really embarrasing. So stop crying. I wish it’s over. MUERA BRASIL!!! (If they do win this one we will have to close the border) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2002, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636/40 "2002-06-24T18:22:04Z")
> [@](#): > > It’s happened before No, it hasn’t. And just becuase some of you keep repeating said mantra doesn’t make it any less false. Find **one** instance in the history of the World Cup where a team that was fiarly and legally dfeated _twice_ has gone on to the next round. You can’t. Becuase it’s never happened **It’ll happen again** Right. And you’re the modern day Nostradamus :rolleyes: As for “getting a grip,” it’s quite obvious most of you have no freaking idea of the kind of passion this event evokes in lfe-long footy fans. In fact, for good and bad, its that very passion that makes football the most visceral of sports the world over. **Estilicon** Careful, bud. Lest you be accused of having lost your grip as well by all these highly intelligent, well-versed, and all-knowing newfangled football experts that see nothing wrong with Korea’s “victories” 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-koreas-winning-so-it-has-to-be-shitty-refs-or-foul-play/115636.md?page=3)