# Hey, Manwich, Bernie lost. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 9, 2020, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413 "2020-04-09T10:21:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2020, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/121 "2020-04-10T18:17:25Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Point taken about Israel, I don’t know much about them. Great Britain is not worse than us, they’re bad because they’re a lessor version of that. The conservative party in Britain is not nearly as toxic and evil as Republicans, though they basically are trying to go in that direction. Great Britain is a country whose politics are absolutely in the decline, but I would still take theirs over our insanity. > … > Prime example: When 31 out of the 32 richest countries in the world have some variant of universal/government administered healthcare, it’s not a “far left” position, it’s a pretty centrist position. The US is the outlier as a fairly far right country, and referring to wanting what most of the rest of the rich world already has as “far left” is doing exactly what the republicans want you to do - to move the overton window to the right by referring to anything not conservative as “far left” Ok, I will accept that GB isnt worse than us, but it’s close, and on the way. Yes, we need some sort of UHC. Biden has a plan for that. It’s a baby step, sure, but it’s a step. UHC isnt far left, we need it. But sanders plan\* was\* radical. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2020, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/122 "2020-04-10T18:34:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Ok, I will accept that GB isnt worse than us, but it’s close, and on the way. > > Yes, we need some sort of UHC. Biden has a plan for that. It’s a baby step, sure, but it’s a step. UHC isnt far left, we need it. But sanders plan\* was\* radical. It wasn’t radical. It was rational. But context matters, and it was radical in context of what American society is prepared to accept today. You’re right about seeing Biden as a step in the right direction, instead of an outright enemy of progressive ideas. The American left, for all it’s bluster, hasn’t organized a decent “Resist” rally in ages. Hell, if we are going to use other nations as models of better civic involvement and governance, we should look to France. Those cheese eaters will have a national strike at the suggestion that lunch break should be reduced from 2 hours to 1. Honestly, the American left doesn’t deserve its epithet. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2020, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/123 "2020-04-10T18:49:59Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > The thing I think not a lot of people are realizing about Bernie supporters who are appalled at voting for Biden is that it’s not that leftists don’t understand compromise, it’s that for many on the far left Bernie **already represented** the extremes of the compromise position. A common refrain among far leftists in my age and social group went something along the lines of “the best thing about Bernie would be the opportunity for him to put systems in place to improve the material conditions of the people enough that we can then overthrow Bernie.” Bernie is to the **right** of what a lot of leftists want, and represents the compromise between far/radical left positions and neoliberal electoralism. > > While there are certainly some Bernie supporters somewhere whose entire politics are “Bernie” and are unwilling to compromise to Biden for bullshit cult of personality reasons, for a lot of people they legitimately feel they’re losing out on the things they already felt they were heavily compromising their morals for. > > Further, for a lot of the more radical left, Bernie wasn’t seen as a goal, he was seen as a **tactic**. That is, if the goal is to effect radical left change and improve the working class’ material conditions, you don’t have just one iron in the fire. They’re only participating in electoralism insofar as it advances their specific agenda, and losing out on their iron in the “electoralism” fire means they’re going to transfer the energy they put into that into, say, raising class consciousness, union organizing, etc. I disagree with this since I think even modest compromises can be important, but for a lot of leftists electoralism is viewed as a very, very tiny occasional part of the political process, as compared with Liberals who generally see organizing and voting for candidates to be the primary/only avenue of engagement with politics. College far leftists represent what, about 0.03 percent of the population? Far more people, by many orders of magnitude, do not want a far left leader. Why should the democrats cater to a handful of campus hipsters at the expense of the majority of democratic voters, or potential democratic voters. Again, more people voted for Biden than Bernie. Far more people would vote for Biden over–well, I have no idea who you have in mind. Also, whatever you say about electoralism it’s the only way to get people into positions where they have any power at all. Talking about class consciousness may lead to an edifying discussion at the university coffee shop, but it does jack all towards improving anyone’s life. Union organizing is fine, but it’s not going to do much if the legislatures are hostile towards unions. Also, just out of curiosity, what unions have you been organizing? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2020, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/124 "2020-04-10T18:52:17Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It wasn’t radical. It was rational. But context matters, and it was radical in context of what American society is prepared to accept today. You’re right about seeing Biden as a step in the right direction, instead of an outright enemy of progressive ideas. > … Bernies plan went far beyond what any other nations plan did. It also would have put tens of thousands out of work, bankrupted a entire industry, and forced Doctors to work for the govt or go into cosmetic surgery or similar. It is the definition of "radical’. Look, we need UHC. GB’s National Health Service or Canada’s system would be fine. But sander’s plan goes far beyond either. That makes it radical. Just because we need UHC , it doesnt mean our only choice is bernies gold plated cadillac plan. If you need a car to get to work, a Chevy or a Honda is fine, you dont have to get a Mercedes-maybach @ $200k. That’s a false dilemma. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2020, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/125 "2020-04-10T18:56:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Bernies plan went far beyond what any other nations plan did. It also would have put tens of thousands out of work, bankrupted a entire industry, and forced Doctors to work for the govt or go into cosmetic surgery or similar. It is the definition of "radical’. > > Look, we need UHC. GB’s National Health Service or Canada’s system would be fine. But sander’s plan goes far beyond either. That makes it radical. > > Just because we need UHC , it doesnt mean our only choice is bernies gold plated cadillac plan. If you need a car to get to work, a Chevy or a Honda is fine, you dont have to get a Mercedes-maybach @ $200k. That’s a false dilemma. I always assumed Bernie’s plan would end in compromise resembling GB/Canada/Scandinavia models. Shoot for the stars and land on the moon kind of thing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2020, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/126 "2020-04-10T18:59:50Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I always assumed Bernie’s plan would end in compromise resembling GB/Canada/Scandinavia models. Shoot for the stars and land on the moon kind of thing. Sure. But it was still radical. Bidens plan is baby steps. I think we need bigger steps, but even baby steps is something. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2020, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/127 "2020-04-12T04:14:53Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I am not a democrat. I do not like the democratic party. If we did not live in a managed democracy, and there was a party that put the interest of the people over the interest of the rich, I would vote for that. Wanting Bernie as president does not make me a democrat, nor does it make voting for the democrat more appealing. > > Furthermore, being told that voting for the lesser of two evils is the “adult decision” is a big reason as to why we’re a managed democracy, and why our two choices are evil. There are countries out there in which you do not have to vote for the lesser of two evils, because at least one, sometimes both, sides are not evil. I know I’m being manipulated and forced into this lesser of two evils situation, as I have been almost all of my life, as I will likely be for the rest of my life. “Lesser of two evils” is a false choice, manufacturing consent to be ruled by evil. It’s the reason this country has been getting worse for the average person for several decades. > > So, given that I do not like the democratic party, am not a democrat, do not want a democrat to be president in a vacuum, and do not appreciate being forced into constantly voting for bad presidents with bad policies, I do not owe the democrats a vote. They especially make it hard when they hand me such a bad fucking candidate. > > But I recognize the uniquely bad nature of Trump, and that if he’s not defeated, that’s probably it for even having a managed democracy. So I’ll almost certainly be voting for Biden. But I’m disgusted with my compliance with this bullshit system, disgusted to have to vote for someone I very much don’t want to be president, disgusted that the democratic party is going to keep chasing the Republicans to the right because, what am I going to do? I have to vote for the lesser of two evils! > > There are a lot of people who recognize this, who don’t want to be part of this bullshit system, who owe nothing to the democratic party. Telling them they’re forced to participate in this bullshit system and that they’re never going to get a president that actually has their interest at heart so just suck it up and vote for the lesser evil is a tough pill to swallow. So if you want them on your side, to vote for your party, at the very least, try not to alienate them. We fucking hate this disgusting position that you - as a supporter of the democratic party - have put us in, by allowing your party to be controlled by the same masters as the republican party. I don’t owe you or your party a vote, and I’m disgusted that I’m going to give it anyway. What do you think insulting me and doing a victory lap about the corporate democrat establishment crushing one of the only people in politics who is genuine and wants to improve the lives of the average American is going to do but make it even harder for me to swallow that bitter pill? > > I’m not going to stay home, but other people might. If you want them to be on your team, you should try being persuasive and making them want to be on it and feel less disgusted by being on it, not trying to stick their noses in it and gloat about how they have no choice. If Bernie won the primary, would I owe him my vote? Would I owe my vote to a candidate nominated by people who admit they don’t really give a shit about the Democratic party? But I would still have voted for Bernie if he won. The thing is he was never going to win. Bernie does not poll better than Biden in the swing states. If he polled better than Biden in those swing states, he would be the nominee. This election isn’t about some historic opportunity to violently jerk American politics to the left and elect a socialist. For most people that vote in the primary, this was about picking the person with the best chance of beating Trump. I’ve held my nose in every election except 2008/2012. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2020, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/128 "2020-04-12T04:17:32Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > It gets annoying listening to everything be blamed on the left. > > Sanders wins the primary but loses the general - the left is to blame > Biden wins the primary but loses the general - the left is to blame. > Sanders drives away suburban voters and loses the general - the left is to blame > Biden drives away liberal voters and loses the general - the left is to blame If Biden does something to affirmatively drive away liberal voters then sure. But if he is driving them away by not being Bernie Sanders, then the left is to blame. > [@](#): > > It gets old. The left make up nearly half of the democratic voting establishment, nearly 30 million voters. They also probably make up the bulk of that 1 billion a year in small donor fundraising the democrats enjoy. Also liberals probably make up a huge fraction if not outright majority of volunteers. > > Liberals vote consistently more than other democratic groups. They donate more money, they volunteer more. In return they get treated like shit. Then how in the world did Bernie lose? You think maybe some of your unsupported assertions might be incorrect? > [@](#): > > I never saw any of you guys speak to suburban purple voters like this about why they should support Sanders if Sanders won the primary. When there were fears Sanders would drive away purple voters in the suburbs it was all ‘we have to stop Sanders’. now that there is fear Biden will drive away leftist voters its hatred and rage against them. Apparently the left dont’ deserve the same level of respect that moderate republicans in the suburbs get. Because purple voters can vote for Trump. We can’t really make the argument that they either vote for Bernie or Trump will win. > [@](#): > > And yes I’m voting for Biden. But jesus, its sad that in 2020 the best we can do is a guy like him. People need time to mourn that in a nation where 70% of voters are non-whites and women, that our candidate is a gullible centrist who happily sells out his voters and has a history of sexual accusations. Give people time to grieve. Go ahead and grieve. And I’ll hold your hand if you want me to but Bernie was never going to win. He just wouldn’t carry enough swing states. > [@](#): > > There are a multitude of very real, and very serious issues in America (mostly relating to democracy, economics, health care and sustainability). They aren’t being addressed in a responsible fashion by either party, and all that anger and disappointment isn’t going to go away. I don’t think we could win a general election with anything much more radical than what Biden is proposing. None of that more radical stuff would have made it through congress. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2020, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/129 "2020-04-12T04:21:42Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Incidentally, all of you who keep referring to the “far left” and “radical left” - you know you’re reciting Republican talking points and helping them move the Overton window when you do that, right? No, I think the far left exists regardless of what the republicans say. I don’t agree with them on where that line is drawn but the line exists. > [@](#): > > By world standards, Bernie is not “far left” and neither are most of his supporters. In most rich countries he’d be considered centrist or slightly left. “Far left” are people who are talking about the abolition of private property, not people talking about state-administered or single payer healthcare. Yes if you are talking about white countries. There are a ton of rich muslim countries where Bernie’s politics would not be welcome. There are a bunch of wealthy asian countries where most of Bernie’s politics would not be that popular. By America’s standards he is about as far left as you can get on the national stage. > [@](#): > > Prime example: When 31 out of the 32 richest countries in the world have some variant of universal/government administered healthcare, it’s not a “far left” position, it’s a pretty centrist position. It is also Biden’s position. > [@](#): > > The US is the outlier as a fairly far right country, and referring to wanting what most of the rest of the rich world already has as “far left” is doing exactly what the republicans want you to do - to move the overton window to the right by referring to anything not conservative as “far left” Universal healthcare is not what makes him far left. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2020, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/130 "2020-04-12T04:32:38Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > The thing I think not a lot of people are realizing about Bernie supporters who are appalled at voting for Biden is that it’s not that leftists don’t understand compromise, it’s that for many on the far left Bernie **already represented** the extremes of the compromise position. A common refrain among far leftists in my age and social group went something along the lines of “the best thing about Bernie would be the opportunity for him to put systems in place to improve the material conditions of the people enough that we can then overthrow Bernie.” Bernie is to the **right** of what a lot of leftists want, and represents the compromise between far/radical left positions and neoliberal electoralism. You will not get there short of armed revolution. It is much more likely that the leftists in your social group will change their minds as they grow older. What? You think you’re the first generation that wanted to radically change things? > [@](#): > > While there are certainly some Bernie supporters somewhere whose entire politics are “Bernie” and are unwilling to compromise to Biden for bullshit cult of personality reasons, for a lot of people they legitimately feel they’re losing out on the things they already felt they were heavily compromising their morals for. > > Further, for a lot of the more radical left, Bernie wasn’t seen as a goal, he was seen as a **tactic**. That is, if the goal is to effect radical left change and improve the working class’ material conditions, you don’t have just one iron in the fire. They’re only participating in electoralism insofar as it advances their specific agenda, and losing out on their iron in the “electoralism” fire means they’re going to transfer the energy they put into that into, say, raising class consciousness, union organizing, etc. I disagree with this since I think even modest compromises can be important, but for a lot of leftists electoralism is viewed as a very, very tiny occasional part of the political process, as compared with Liberals who generally see organizing and voting for candidates to be the primary/only avenue of engagement with politics. This is a democracy. All you have to do is convince people like me to agree with you. Good luck. It’s not that it can’t happen. I agree with you guys on state school tuition but you have not convinced me that we should have open something approaching admissions at those state colleges. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2020, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/131 "2020-04-12T04:34:55Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Its not the Dems you need to convince to be more progressive, but the US itself, and the Dems will inherently follow. Heck, the Pubs would have to liberal up to compete. To some extent, some of them were hoping for a fluke like the racists got on the right with Trump. They want to try and shoot the moon with similarly disastrous consequences if they miss. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2020, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/132 "2020-04-12T23:31:08Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > College far leftists represent what, about 0.03 percent of the population? Far more people, by many orders of magnitude, do not want a far left leader. Why should the democrats cater to a handful of campus hipsters at the expense of the majority of democratic voters, or potential democratic voters. > > Again, more people voted for Biden than Bernie. Far more people would vote for Biden over–well, I have no idea who you have in mind. Also, whatever you say about electoralism it’s the only way to get people into positions where they have any power at all. Talking about class consciousness may lead to an edifying discussion at the university coffee shop, but it does jack all towards improving anyone’s life. Union organizing is fine, but it’s not going to do much if the legislatures are hostile towards unions. Also, just out of curiosity, what unions have you been organizing? Graduate student worker’s union, currently in bargaining. Been getting some large attention especially in the wake of the UC system strikes. I’ve also been involved in helping get our local faculty union off the ground, and peripherally involved in an undergraduate student union as well as some fast food and grocery worker unions (especially with the hazards of Coronavirus happening). Also the IWW in my area but that’s largely because they organize some of the food service unions here. And no, it’s not just university students, even grad students. Most of my friends are of this persuasion too and are often retail workers, call center workers, a few sex workers, etc. Largely queer, since Millenial and Zoomer queer people in particular are, IME, incredibly likely to be somewhere on the DemSoc/Communist spectrum. In fact, I came to leftism far more via queer groups than I did via my union or university (which I’m leaving come summer). > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You will not get there short of armed revolution. Eh, that’s one of the irons in the fire that people legitimately prepare for, but not my personal preferred option. I don’t see it mobilizing, personally. Though with the current shitstorm who knows what’s about to unfold afterwards. > [@](#): > > It is much more likely that the leftists in your social group will change their minds as they grow older. What? You think you’re the first generation that wanted to radically change things? Yes yes [“Oh I’ve grown older and wiser and that’s why I’m turning you in”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nFvhhCulaw). I think some will stop, but the Millenial and Zoomer LGBT crowd is very aggressively communist, or at least DemSoc, likely largely brought on by the recession, and the impending fallout from COVID isn’t likely to make views on capitalism any rosier. Unlike Boomers who got to live through a pretty big period of economic prosperity, Millenials basically got a recession followed by a gig economy followed by a giant crash, it’s unlikely to play out the same way as the historical trajectory that ended up giving former hippies enough success under a capitalist system they came to defend it. Not to mention we don’t have the constant propaganda of the cold war bearing down on us wrt anti-communist rhetoric. It’s possible most of us will stop being leftists, but it’s a much, much different economic and social situation. > [@](#): > > If Biden does something to affirmatively drive away liberal voters then sure. But if he is driving them away by not being Bernie Sanders, then the left is to blame. Like, oh any of this? (post that’s been getting copied around) > [@](#): > > Why You Shouldn’t Support Joe Biden For The Upcoming 2020 Election: a thread > > 1. Led the fight against desegregating schools > > source: [Joe Biden, the Anti-Busing Democrat](https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/08/joe-biden-president-busing-racism) > > 1. Long history of creepily groping, sniffing, kissing women and young girls > > source: [https://twitter.com/RAMRANTS/status/930065838387863552?s=20](https://twitter.com/RAMRANTS/status/930065838387863552?s=20) > > …he then issued a non-apology where he tried to justify his acts > > source: [Joe Biden can’t stop using the toxic “lock up your daughters” joke.](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/06/joe-biden-iowa-2020-campaign-teenage-girl-fence-warning.html) > > 1. Intimidated a woman when confronted about his lack of support for reproductive justice > > source: [https://twitter.com/thelocalmaniac8/status/1138675278933348352?s=20](https://twitter.com/thelocalmaniac8/status/1138675278933348352?s=20) > > 1. Voted for the disastrous Iraq War > > source: [The Iraq War should be a 2020 issue | The Week](https://theweek.com/articles/830438/iraq-war-should-2020-issue) > > …and still to this day says he’d do it again > > source: [Joe Biden, the Hawk](https://jacobinmag.com/2018/08/joe-biden-democratic-party-military-hawk) > > 1. Wrote a racist Crime Bill > > source: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rinLLham9gk&feature=youtu.be](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rinLLham9gk&feature=youtu.be) > > …that led to record-breaking mass incarceration > > source: [Joe Biden, Mass Incarceration Zealot](https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/08/biden-crime-mass-incarceration-police-prisons) > > …and bragged about writing the Bill > > source: [https://twitter.com/shaunking/status/1124300911533350912?s=20](https://twitter.com/shaunking/status/1124300911533350912?s=20) > > 1. Horrible treatment of Anita Hill during Clarence Thomas hearing > > source: [Joe Biden's Non-Apology to Anita Hill Represents His Politics](https://theintercept.com/2019/04/27/anita-hill-joe-biden-non-apology/) > > 1. Led a disastrous War on Drugs > > source: [Joe Biden's Drug War Record Is So Much Worse Than You Think | Leafly](https://www.leafly.com/news/politics/joe-bidens-drug-war-record-is-so-much-worse-than-you-think) > > …still opposes cannabis legalization > > source: [Joe Biden 2020: What Are His Views on Marijuana Legalization](https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/joe-biden-weed-war-drugs-candidate-2020-827319/) > > …despite the fact that two of his children escaped consequences for drug use > > source: [‘Double standard’: Activists say Biden’s hardline drugs policies didn’t apply to his children’s cocaine and marijuana use - Washington Examiner](https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/biden-tough-on-drugs-policies-did-not-apply-to-his-childrens-marijuana-and-cocaine-offenses) > > 1. Opposed equal rights for the LGBTQ+ community until very recently > > source: [https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/104-1996/s280](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/104-1996/s280) > > 1. Opposes Medicare For All > > source: [Joe Biden 2020 presidential campaign: Medicare-for-all vs. health care industry - Vox](https://www.vox.com/2019/4/26/18515699/joe-biden-2020-presidential-campaign-medicare-for-all) > > 1. Opposes meaningful action on the climate crisis like the Green New Deal, instead pursuing the “middle ground” > > source: [https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/443074-biden-crafting-more-centrist-plan-for-climate-change-policy-report](https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/443074-biden-crafting-more-centrist-plan-for-climate-change-policy-report) > > 1. Voted to ban immigrants with HIV, locking Haitian refugees up in Guantanamo Bay > > source: [U.S. Senate: 404 Error Page](https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=103&session=1&vote=00013) > > 1. Voted to build border walls > > source: [U.S. Senate: 404 Error Page](https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00126) > > 1. Supported sending military to the border long before Trump > > source: [Joe Biden, Anti-Immigrant Enabler](https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/04/joe-biden-anti-immigrant-deportation-policies) > > 1. Voted to expand deportations and indefinite detention for immigrants > > source: [U.S. Senate: 404 Error Page](https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=104&session=1&vote=00242) > > …multiple times > > source: [U.S. Senate: 404 Error Page](https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=104&session=2&vote=00108) > > 1. Opposed amnesty for immigrants and supports requiring them to learn English > > source: [https://twitter.com/maryjanebern/status/1133587205308465156?s=20](https://twitter.com/maryjanebern/status/1133587205308465156?s=20) > > 1. Helped expand the system Trump now uses to commit human rights violations by 3,600% > > source: [https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/the-deportation-machine-obama-built-for-president-trump/](https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/the-deportation-machine-obama-built-for-president-trump/) > > 1. Does not view abortion as a choice and a right > > source: [Joe Biden Can’t Be Trusted to Fight for Abortion Rights](https://theintercept.com/2020/03/07/joe-biden-abortion-rights/) > > 1. Worked to undermine the ACA’s coverage of birth control > > source: [Joe Biden Tried to Cut Contraception Coverage in Obamacare](https://theintercept.com/2019/06/05/joe-biden-worked-to-undermine-the-affordable-care-acts-coverage-of-contraception/) > > 1. Opposed Roe v Wade > > source: [Joe Biden, the Unreliable Pro-Choice Advocate](https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/08/joe-biden-abortion-president) > > 1. Still to this day opposes federal funding for abortion > > source: [Biden’s Middle Ground Politics are Bad for Women | by Jessica Valenti | GEN](https://gen.medium.com/bidens-middle-ground-politics-are-bad-for-women-704fdec0a1e7) > > 1. Racist comments > > source: [https://twitter.com/WalkerBragman/status/1141753425362903040?s=20](https://twitter.com/WalkerBragman/status/1141753425362903040?s=20) > > 1. Defends other fellow racists > > source: [https://twitter.com/WalkerBragman/status/1133814010103705601?s=20](https://twitter.com/WalkerBragman/status/1133814010103705601?s=20) > > …and more racists > > source: [Everybody’s Chum ❧ Current Affairs](https://www.currentaffairs.org/2019/03/everybodys-chum) > > …AND more racists > > source: [https://twitter.com/QueenInYeIIow/status/1141311792003596288?s=20](https://twitter.com/QueenInYeIIow/status/1141311792003596288?s=20) > > 1. As part of his crusade against desegregating schools he was the only member of the Senate Judiciary Committee to block two black appointees to the Department of Justice > > source: [Biden Opposed Historic Black DOJ Nominees In Anti-Busing Crusade | HuffPost Latest News](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/joe-biden-busing-nominees_n_5ca3c03de4b03174b92904f7) > > 1. Lies about marching in the Civil Rights movement > > source: [https://twitter.com/adamcbest/status/1135737147095429120?s=20](https://twitter.com/adamcbest/status/1135737147095429120?s=20) > > 1. Sided with banks to overturn Glass-Steagall and deregulate, leading to financial crisis > > source: [Aftermath of the repeal of the Glass–Steagall Act - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aftermath_of_the_repeal_of_the_Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act) > > 1. Defends billionaires hoarding wealth > > source: [Joe Biden Clarifies He's No Bernie Sanders: "I Don't Think 500 Billionaires Are Reason We're in Trouble"](https://www.commondreams.org/news/2018/05/09/joe-biden-clarifies-hes-no-bernie-sanders-i-dont-think-500-billionaires-are-reason) > > …promises to ensure it keeps happening at the expense of everyone else > > source: [Joe Biden Promises Rich Donors He Won't 'Demonize' The Wealthy If Elected President | HuffPost Latest News](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/joe-biden-wont-demonize-the-rich_n_5d09ac63e4b0f7b74428e4c6) > > …votes to slash the top income tax rate > > source: [Joe Biden's Biggest 2020 Problem Is Joe Biden | HuffPost Latest News](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/joe-biden-2020_n_5c796502e4b087c2f295ba31) > > …and cripple the estate tax > > source: [Republicans Push $269 Billion Handout For Millionaire Heirs And Heiresses | HuffPost Latest News](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/republicans-push-269-bill_n_7061458) > > …resulting in $83 billion lost annually > > source: [https://taxfoundation.org/modeling-economic-effects-past-tax-bills/](https://taxfoundation.org/modeling-economic-effects-past-tax-bills/) > > 1. Plagiarized fossil fuel groups’ language in his woefully inadequate climate crisis plan > > source: [https://truthout.org/articles/biden-campaign-admits-lifting-section-of-climate-plan-from-fossil-fuel-groups/](https://truthout.org/articles/biden-campaign-admits-lifting-section-of-climate-plan-from-fossil-fuel-groups/) > > 1. Architected Plan Colombia, internationalizing the War On Drugs resulting in mass death, displacement, and destruction of food crops, while opening the country to US business interests > > source: [Joe Biden, Anti-Immigrant Enabler](https://www.jacobinmag.com/2019/04/joe-biden-anti-immigrant-deportation-policies) > > 1. Supports Israel’s right-wing regime and apartheid in Palestine > > source: [Joe Biden, the Hawk](https://jacobinmag.com/2018/08/joe-biden-democratic-party-military-hawk) > > 1. Sides with Trump in backing right-wing coup in Venezuela > > source: [Biden Sides With Trump, Bolton, and Pompeo in Backing Coup Effort in Venezuela](https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/05/01/biden-sides-trump-bolton-and-pompeo-backing-coup-effort-venezuela) > > 1. Voted against abolishing the electoral college that undemocratically elected Bush and Trump > > source: [https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/96-1979/s161](https://www.govtrack.us/congress/votes/96-1979/s161) > > 1. Voted against enhancing labor protection enforcements > > source: [U.S. Senate: 404 Error Page](https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=2&vote=00141) > > 1. Says the CIA torture report is not a “black stain on this country” but a “badge of honor” > > source: [https://twitter.com/eshaLegal/status/1137412059510050816?s=20](https://twitter.com/eshaLegal/status/1137412059510050816?s=20) > > 1. Is still openly courting Republican billionaires for donations, including John Catsimatidis, who’s compared taxing the wealthy to Nazi persecution of Jews > > source: [https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/18/billionaire-trump-donor-says-he-rejected-joe-bidens-request-for-fundraising-help.html?\_\_source=sharebar|twitter&par=sharebar](https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/18/billionaire-trump-donor-says-he-rejected-joe-bidens-request-for-fundraising-help.html?__source=sharebar%7Ctwitter&par=sharebar) > > 1. His administration awarded a $1.5 billion contract to his brother’s construction firm despite his brother having no prior residential construction experience > > source: [Crony capitalism & Joe Biden’s brother](https://nypost.com/2012/10/23/crony-capitalism-joe-bidens-brother/) > > 1. Funded by lobbyists > > source: [Hours After Entering 2020 Race, Biden to Attend Big-Money Fundraiser Hosted by Comcast, Blue Cross Execs](https://www.commondreams.org/news/2019/04/25/hours-after-entering-2020-race-biden-attend-big-money-fundraiser-hosted-comcast-blue#) > > …and partakes in general corruption > > source: [Joe Biden, Neoliberal](https://www.jacobinmag.com/2018/08/joe-biden-neoliberal-democrat-conservative-lobbying) > > 1. Voted to deregulate the credit card industry while a credit card company was his top donor from 1989–2000 and then hired his son > > source: [https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/middle-class-joe-cozied-up-to-credit-card-companies-and-made-filing-for-bankruptcy-harder](https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/middle-class-joe-cozied-up-to-credit-card-companies-and-made-filing-for-bankruptcy-harder) > > 1. Used Charlottesville as a prop in his campaign video despite never even visiting once > > source: [https://www.huffpost.com/entry/charlottesville-activists-dont-want-joe-biden-to-use-city-as-a-campaign-prop\_n\_5cc200d2e4b0e56130eeaafd](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/charlottesville-activists-dont-want-joe-biden-to-use-city-as-a-campaign-prop_n_5cc200d2e4b0e56130eeaafd) > > The worst part? He isn’t sorry for any of this > > [https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/437582-biden-im-not-sorry-for-anything-that-i-have-ever-done](https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/437582-biden-im-not-sorry-for-anything-that-i-have-ever-done) > > so fuck Joe Biden > fuck anyone who supports him > and fuck the party that backs him > > (not my content, post found in a group) ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/133 "2020-04-13T00:00:59Z")
About that list of gripes against Biden: some appear legitimate, i.e. his past coziness with lobbyists and remaining silent (at best) about family members getting lucrative positions for which they were unqualified based on being named Biden. Others are…questionable. Accusing Biden of joining Trump in backing a “right-wing coup” in Venezuela leaves out just a few salient facts as noted by the N.Y. Times, which include Guaidó’s being recognized as the legitimate President of Venezuela by more than 50 nations. _“The countries — including Austria, Britain, Denmark, France, Germany, the Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Spain and others — joined the United States, Canada, Australia and much of Latin America in withdrawing recognition of Mr. Maduro’s government and acknowledging Mr. Guaidó, the opposition leader, as the interim president pending elections. Mr. Maduro easily won re-election last year, despite the collapsing economy, endemic corruption and repression in Venezuela, in a vote that his opponents and international observers said was heavily rigged.”_ Other than hard-core leftists, people generally don’t view opposition to Maduro as a “coup attempt”. Most disappointing and concerning about Biden is his evident lack of any firm convictions, which are routinely discarded once he perceives them as political liabilities. This of course makes him a typical politician. Whether the people who voted in Trump are still hyped against picking a typical politician for President remains to be seen. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/134 "2020-04-13T16:52:47Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Eh, that’s one of the irons in the fire that people legitimately prepare for, but not my personal preferred option. I don’t see it mobilizing, personally. Though with the current shitstorm who knows what’s about to unfold afterwards. I’m not sure if you’re aware of who has all the guns. It’s not left, it’s not even the right, it’s not the civilians at all. > [@](#): > > Yes yes [“Oh I’ve grown older and wiser and that’s why I’m turning you in”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nFvhhCulaw). I think some will stop, but the Millenial and Zoomer LGBT crowd is very aggressively communist, or at least DemSoc, likely largely brought on by the recession, and the impending fallout from COVID isn’t likely to make views on capitalism any rosier. Unlike Boomers who got to live through a pretty big period of economic prosperity, Millenials basically got a recession followed by a gig economy followed by a giant crash, it’s unlikely to play out the same way as the historical trajectory that ended up giving former hippies enough success under a capitalist system they came to defend it. Not to mention we don’t have the constant propaganda of the cold war bearing down on us wrt anti-communist rhetoric. It’s possible most of us will stop being leftists, but it’s a much, much different economic and social situation. This is true, these are different economic times and society makes adjustments from time to time. It wasn’t the parents of the boomers that voted in FDR 3 times in a row. It was the folks who lived through the great depression. The Greatest Generation: "This generation experienced much of their youth during rapid technological innovation (radio, telephone) amidst growing levels of worldwide income inequality[7][8][9] and a soaring economy.[10][11][12] After the Stock Market crashed, this generation experienced profound economic and social turmoil, and eventually World War II. While Tom Brokaw and others extol this generation for supporting and fighting World War II, American historian and sociologist Harvey J. Kaye writes that in addition to ending isolationism, most Americans of the Greatest Generation wanted “to curb the power of capital, create economic growth and development, end poverty, and ‘enable people to advance themselves.’”[13]" So maybe you guys are the next greatest generation. > [@](#): > > Like, oh any of this? (post that’s been getting copied around) I was talking about what he does from here on out. He is the likely nominee, in part based on his record and frankly the list is cherry picked, disingenuous and seems to have a very low threshhold for why you shouldn’t vote for Biden. Voting to fund physical border security in 2006 is not “Voting to build border walls” as it is understood in today’s political discourse. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/135 "2020-04-13T17:50:07Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Graduate student worker’s union, currently in bargaining. Been getting some large attention especially in the wake of the UC system strikes. I’ve also been involved in helping get our local faculty union off the ground, and peripherally involved in an undergraduate student union as well as some fast food and grocery worker unions (especially with the hazards of Coronavirus happening). Also the IWW in my area but that’s largely because they organize some of the food service unions here. > > And no, it’s not just university students, even grad students. Most of my friends are of this persuasion too and are often retail workers, call center workers, a few sex workers, etc. Largely queer, since Millenial and Zoomer queer people in particular are, IME, incredibly likely to be somewhere on the DemSoc/Communist spectrum. In fact, I came to leftism far more via queer groups than I did via my union or university (which I’m leaving come summer). > > Eh, that’s one of the irons in the fire that people legitimately prepare for, but not my personal preferred option. I don’t see it mobilizing, personally. Though with the current shitstorm who knows what’s about to unfold afterwards. > > Yes yes [“Oh I’ve grown older and wiser and that’s why I’m turning you in”](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0nFvhhCulaw). I think some will stop, but the Millenial and Zoomer LGBT crowd is very aggressively communist, or at least DemSoc, likely largely brought on by the recession, and the impending fallout from COVID isn’t likely to make views on capitalism any rosier. Unlike Boomers who got to live through a pretty big period of economic prosperity, Millenials basically got a recession followed by a gig economy followed by a giant crash, it’s unlikely to play out the same way as the historical trajectory that ended up giving former hippies enough success under a capitalist system they came to defend it. Not to mention we don’t have the constant propaganda of the cold war bearing down on us wrt anti-communist rhetoric. It’s possible most of us will stop being leftists, but it’s a much, much different economic and social situation. > > Like, oh any of this? (post that’s been getting copied around) Well, you’ve got heart, kid. Come back when you’re 40 or so, we’ll find out if you have any brains. ---
**Author:** ![str8cashhomie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7cd45c/32.png) [@str8cashhomie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/str8cashhomie)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/136 "2020-04-13T17:52:52Z")
I really hope progressives who aren’t planning to vote for Biden reconsider given the fact that Trump is currently stealing medical supplies from states and we’re all sitting on the jury to decide what the consequences should be. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/137 "2020-04-13T17:55:31Z")
I read a thread like this, e.g. the confused and bitter post quoted below, and it makes me weep for America. Is this the same nation who organized the Invasion of Normandy in 1944, and later rescued Europe with Truman’s ‘Marshall Plan’? The same nation who landed a Man on the Moon? _Unbelievable._ > [@Unreconstructed\_Man](#): > > But it _would_ be Biden’s fault. Nobody _owes_ Biden their vote. If I think that Joe Biden is just a neoliberal shill giving cover to the rapacious moneyed interests that make it so hard to get on in life, then the fact that Donald Trump might be, like, 20% worse or whatever isn’t going to be enough to get me off my ass on Election Day. It’s Biden’s job to make voters believe in him. If he can’t do that then that’s on him. ---
**Author:** ![Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mundane_super_hero/32/6304_2.png) [@Mundane\_Super\_Hero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mundane_Super_Hero)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/138 "2020-04-13T18:00:14Z")
That whole huge post seems like Trump dirty trickster SPAM… part of the next wave of “walk away” BS. I said I’d support the nominee, and I will. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2020, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/139 "2020-04-13T18:25:14Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > I read a thread like this, e.g. the confused and bitter post quoted below, and it makes me weep for America. > > Is this the same nation who organized the Invasion of Normandy in 1944, and later rescued Europe with Truman’s ‘Marshall Plan’? The same nation who landed a Man on the Moon? _Unbelievable._ Nope. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2020, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/140 "2020-04-14T04:55:30Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Graduate student worker’s union, currently in bargaining. Been getting some large attention especially in the wake of the UC system strikes. Heh. That’s pretty much what I thought. I’m sure every Amazon warehouse worker, every Walmart employee, every assembly line person at Boeing, they are all comforted by your taking time from your discussions of Habermas and Gramsci to play act as someone who is doing something relevant. Fuck you, you smarmy supercilious ageist creep. But hey, I’m sure the person Trump appoints to replace Ruth Ginsburg will be ever so rewarding of your ideological purity. And will support trans rights with a passion. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413.md?page=8)