# Hey, Manwich, Bernie lost. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 9, 2020, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413 "2020-04-09T10:21:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![dalej42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/67e7ee/32.png) [@dalej42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dalej42)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2020, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/141 "2020-04-14T07:13:51Z")
> [@Baker](#): > > It’s been almost twelve hours since **dalej42** posted the OP. He hasn’t been back. Seems obvious that it was done just to rile folks up. My bet is that he is sitting and watching the replies, getting off on the furor he is causing. If ever there was a case of dnftt, this is it. Transmission ended!😃 I’m not a drive by poster (been here since 2004), I’ve had numerous internet issues, board issues as well as other things going on. Anyway, Bernie’s endorsement pretty much bring this to a close. There will be holdouts, but there always are. Some people just like to fling spitballs and others are just contrarians. Bernie is in the twilight of his political career. He’ll never run for President again. He has a ton to answer for, but at least the remaining bros have nothing to organize around. And, the Greene have started to read their ugly head again but they look even more like a clusterfuck this year and I don’t think they’ll be a factor ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2020, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/142 "2020-04-14T07:15:52Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Heh. That’s pretty much what I thought. I’m sure every Amazon warehouse worker, every Walmart employee, every assembly line person at Boeing, they are all comforted by your taking time from your discussions of Habermas and Gramsci to play act as someone who is doing something relevant. > > Fuck you, you smarmy supercilious ageist creep. But hey, I’m sure the person Trump appoints to replace Ruth Ginsburg will be ever so rewarding of your ideological purity. And will support trans rights with a passion. Fuck off trying to delineate and imply we don’t do “real work” or whatever it is you’re insinuating. I was literally homeless for part of last year. We have workers living in vans, and who have gotten medical problems they haven’t been able to fix because our leave policies are so bad. I’ve had friends who have had to resort to actual sex work to be able to afford rent because of the cost of living. We work at an institution that can fire you and cite “academic reasons” to sidestep every provision of our contract because it only applies to “job performance” despite the distinction being meaningless for a large part of our work force. Who does the majority of the teaching, course material design, and especially research load of the University. Where we get paid like we’re half time employees but forced to register for credits, forcing us to work well over what’s legally full time hours, with over half of it unpaid, and then told they’re doing us a favor because they’re waiving tuition for “credits” whose course description is “do the research you’re also employed to do.” And I don’t generally engage heavily in theory. My interaction with the union is largely practical, I don’t hang around the organizer’s office discussing Hegel or whatever. We have like… maybe 3 people that do that? And they’re all insufferable. And nice editing out the part where I said we’re, including me, also closely involved in helping the faculty union (other educational workers!) as well as fast food and grocery unions organize at the moment. Y’know, people directly in harm’s way due to a pandemic, many of whom agree with us on political issues. I have no idea where the fuck you’re getting “ageist” from. I suppose it’s true in the sense that we all have bigotry to unlearn but I’m not sure what I said that actually undermines people based on age. Also I never said how I was going to vote. Personally, I’m almost certainly going to strategically vote for Biden but it’s an ethical nightmare. I know myself. I won’t be able to pass up the chance he might trip and enact something good, but I’m not even convinced it’s the correct decision. Look: obviously Biden is better than Trump, that’s unassailable. They’re not identical candidates. But there is **absolutely a meta-effect to consider**. If Biden wins, it would appear to legitimize every comment about “moderates being electable” in the eyes of those who made it, kneecapping further left policy for the foreseeable future, and emboldening those who want to play it safe and not pass any actually compelling legislation. It signals to the Democratic party it’s a-okay with us to run someone who is, at best, a sexual harasser (which, as a rape victim, the thought of voting for him is incredibly triggering for me no less mentally taxing than the Kavanaugh nomination debacle). In The Anatomy of Fascism, the author describes Fascism as a reaction to frustration with “weak liberal policymaking”, and people becoming so fed up with weak moderate non-solutions they elect the first person who promises to do something to address their actual problems, even if they’re horrible non-solutions built on bigoted nonsense. Is Biden going to just trigger that revulsion harder? Is it going to cause a worse Trump? Or Trump to pull a Grover Cleaveland and show up in 2024 with even more secure power and public approval than he would have if he had just won 2020? [During COVID the Dem party hasn’t exactly been doing great from a labor perspective either](https://paydayreport.com/democratic-officials-move-to-suspend-union-contracts-during-covid-19), and I’m genuinely concerned signaling we’re okay with such a weak center-right candidate will pave the way for further erosion of those rights under both parties. Am I, personally, going to vote for Biden? Almost certainly. But it’s non-obvious to me that Biden is better than Trump. Not in the sense that he’s not immediately better, but in the sense that it’s not obvious to me that the act of electing Biden will not exacerbate the same conditions that led to Trump. And I am simply unable to resolve these questions in any way that will allow me to convince anyone with similar concerns that comes to the opposite conclusion. **Especially** not fellow sexual assault victims that cannot bring themselves to vote for a sexual harasser, and possible rapist. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2020, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/143 "2020-04-14T12:18:38Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > They’re not identical candidates. But there is **absolutely a meta-effect to consider**. I disagree. In 2000, I didn’t: I thought that a meta-effect might occur, and a vote for Nader might trigger a meta-effect, might get centrist Democrats to pay more attention to the left. Yeah, that didn’t happen. Of course there are secondary effects from elections. But the idea I’ve been hearing about elections ever since I first set up anti-war tables in my high school cafeteria in 1991, that third-party votes could have a salubrious effect on the policies of the Democratic party, just hasn’t held up. And the corollary you seem to be suggesting, that a vote for a centrist now can encourage a fascist later, also doesn’t really seem to happen. Instead, I think these meta-effect arguments tend to be self-serving. Voting for Biden is a lousy thing to do for someone who’s very far to the left of Biden. And if someone personalizes their vote, treating it like a trophy or a valentine, it’s gonna feel dishonest. Positing a harmful meta-effect attaching to a Biden vote can let the positer do the thing they want to do anyway, i.e., refuse to vote for Biden. But votes ain’t valentines. [Rebecca Solnit’s 2016 article in The Nation](https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/the-2000-election-unleashed-disaster-on-the-world-we-cant-let-that-happen-again-in-2016/) is crucial reading for leftists trying to figure out how to vote in times like we find ourselves in, and I really encourage you to read it. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2020, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/144 "2020-04-14T21:34:55Z")
> [@dalej42](#): > > [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22238375&postcount=159](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=22238375&postcount=159) > > Now go fuck yourself. We’re not playing that Biden has to earn my vote game this time. Shitbag Sanders lost. He got his vile disgusting ass kicked. > > Take a hint, we don’t want your vote. You’re not worthy enough to vote for Joe Biden. I’ll suggest an alternative: open up your asshole and shove your holier than thou vote right up there. It won’t be missed and neither will Bernie Sanders. Vitriol aside, this could also apply to the banned poster who called himself **Barack Obama**. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2020, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/145 "2020-04-14T23:20:52Z")
Sanders comes out and says not supporting Biden is irresponsible since it will empower Trump. > **[Sanders says opposing Biden is 'irresponsible'](https://abc6onyourside.com/news/nation-world/sanders-says-opposing-biden-is-irresponsible)** > > WASHINGTON (AP) - Bernie Sanders said Tuesday that it would be Which is good that he made that statement. I’m sure Bernie will do a lot of rallies for Biden. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2020, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/146 "2020-04-14T23:23:38Z")
The idea that Bernie didn’t do everything he could to endorse Hillary is completely fictitious. He earnestly campaigned for her, frequently, hard, and unequvicably. Trying to portray him as a sore loser that tried to sabotage the democrats is absolute bullshit. There was no doubt he was going to whole heartedly support Biden. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2020, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/147 "2020-04-14T23:43:26Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > The idea that Bernie didn’t do everything he could to endorse Hillary is completely fictitious. He earnestly campaigned for her, frequently, hard, and unequvicably. Trying to portray him as a sore loser that tried to sabotage the democrats is absolute bullshit. There was no doubt he was going to whole heartedly support Biden. Well, during his last campaign, just a few montsh ago- he spent millions on TV ads that falsely said Biden wanted to cut Social Security. So yeah, there _was_ doubt. Because there was no reason to spend millions on those lying attack ads. Sanders had already lost. He did the same to Hillary. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/148 "2020-04-15T03:14:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, during his last campaign, just a few montsh ago- he spent millions on TV ads that falsely said Biden wanted to cut Social Security. > > So yeah, there _was_ doubt. Because there was no reason to spend millions on those lying attack ads. Sanders had already lost. > > He did the same to Hillary. How dare he disagree with his primary opponents. How DARE he interpret Biden’s words in a way differently from how you interpret them. ---
**Author:** ![Manwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Manwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manwich)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/149 "2020-04-15T03:19:01Z")
Yeah I know it’s not like Biden was a Dalek and screaming in a metalic voice to EXTERMINATE Social Security but he definitively talked about cutting Social Security, all your own cites say so. And with an issue like that, we wouldn’t expect a politician to come out and say how much they were really willing to cut it, it’s more something they have to dogwhistle. EDIT: Replying to DrDeth there if it wasn’t clear ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/150 "2020-04-15T03:28:08Z")
Sanders went for the throat of his main opponent I in the primary because he really wanted to win the nomination. Now that it’s clear he’s not going to get that, he’s going for the next-best thing and trying to help Trump lose. I have no problem with his tactics and have to respect him for doing all that. I’m far from a Bernie supporter, but I give him props. ---
**Author:** ![Manwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Manwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manwich)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/151 "2020-04-15T03:35:30Z")
> [@Atamasama](#): > > Sanders went for the throat of his main opponent I in the primary because he really wanted to win the nomination. Not being disingenuous, I know it’s hard to tell around here sometimes but did he really? He didn’t use the sexual assault allegations, or Biden’s medical record or misspeaking against him did he? Attacking Biden on Social Security just seems like a straightforward policy, consistency and political character based attack, not so much going for the throat. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/152 "2020-04-15T04:07:57Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > How dare he disagree with his primary opponents. How DARE he interpret Biden’s words in a way differently from how you interpret them. That’s not “disagreeing”. And Since Politifact agrees that Sanders was full of shit on this “mostly false” it’s not how\*\* _I_\*\* interpreted them. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/153 "2020-04-15T04:13:04Z")
> [@Manwich](#): > > Yeah I know it’s not like Biden was a Dalek and screaming in a metalic voice to EXTERMINATE Social Security but he definitively talked about cutting Social Security, all your own cites say so. And with an issue like that, we wouldn’t expect a politician to come out and say how much they were really willing to cut it, it’s more something they have to dogwhistle. > > EDIT: Replying to DrDeth there if it wasn’t clear Yes, he talked about it, by calling the GOP’s bluff. Everyone, even Sanders know that, and Politifact agrees. It’s pretty easy to go to Biden’s page and see how he wants to strengthen and protect SocSec. Biden knew full that the GOP would never agree to a across the board 5% cut on everything. He knew they were full of shit and only wanted to cut social programs in \*the name of deficit cutting. \* Biden was never going to cut SocSec. Do you believe that National Lampoon would really have shot that dog if you didnt buy their magazine? :dubious::dubious::dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/154 "2020-04-15T06:24:45Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Vitriol aside, this could also apply to the banned poster who called himself **Barack Obama**. Speaking of the banned poster who called himself **Barack Obama** , the “new” poster **RealFDRdem** sure sounds awfully familiar. ---
**Author:** ![Manwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Manwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manwich)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/155 "2020-04-15T06:55:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That’s not “disagreeing”. And Since Politifact agrees that Sanders was full of shit on this “mostly false” it’s not how\*\* _I_\*\* interpreted them. I give “Biden wanted to cut Social Security” mostly true and so do plenty of other websites. He was (and probably is in my view but we can’t know what he really believes) willing to cut Social Security to save money. In a way it’s admirable he admitted it, he even said he knew it was politically unpopular but he went ahead and was honest. > **[Biden vs. Sanders on Social Security and Medicare - FactCheck.org](https://www.factcheck.org/2020/01/biden-vs-sanders-on-social-security-and-medicare/)** > > Sen. Bernie Sanders says former Vice President Joe Biden has a long history of supporting cuts to Social Security. Biden says the opposite is true. We sort through some of the competing claims. > **[Fact Check: Joe Biden Has Advocated Cutting Social Security for 40 Years](https://theintercept.com/2020/01/13/biden-cuts-social-security/)** > > “I tried with Senator Grassley back in the 1980s to freeze all government spending, including Social Security, including everything,” Biden said in 1995. People disagree on this point, it’s OK. And I’m sure he says he wants to strengthen and protect Social Security now, it’s not good strategy to admit to wanting to cut it. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/156 "2020-04-15T07:05:57Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Sanders comes out and says not supporting Biden is irresponsible since it will empower Trump. > > [Sanders says opposing Biden is 'irresponsible'](https://abc6onyourside.com/news/nation-world/sanders-says-opposing-biden-is-irresponsible) > > Which is good that he made that statement. I’m sure Bernie will do a lot of rallies for Biden. “Not supporting [the Democratic nominee] is irresponsible” is pretty strong language, and I’m glad he employed it. Sorry if it seems like picking at scabs, but _did_ he use equally strong language in 2016? (Seriously, I really don’t know.) ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/157 "2020-04-15T07:10:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, he talked about it, by calling the GOP’s bluff. Everyone, even Sanders know that, and Politifact agrees. > > It’s pretty easy to go to Biden’s page and see how he wants to strengthen and protect SocSec. > Biden knew full that the GOP would never agree to a across the board 5% cut on everything. He knew they were full of shit and only wanted to cut social programs in \*the name of deficit cutting. \* Biden was never going to cut SocSec. > > **Do you believe that National Lampoon would really have shot that dog if you didnt buy their magazine?** :dubious::dubious::dubious: You mean the dog is still alive? HUZZAH! :D:D:D (I’ve always felt real bad about not buying that issue). ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/158 "2020-04-15T07:21:59Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Speaking of the banned poster who called himself **Barack Obama** , the “new” poster **RealFDRdem** sure sounds awfully familiar. The Omnibus Trolls R Us thread is down the hall, Mac. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/159 "2020-04-15T07:39:48Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > I am not a democrat. I do not like the democratic party. If we did not live in a managed democracy, and there was a party that put the interest of the people over the interest of the rich, I would vote for that. Wanting Bernie as president does not make me a democrat, nor does it make voting for the democrat more appealing. > > Furthermore, being told that voting for the lesser of two evils is the “adult decision” is a big reason as to why we’re a managed democracy, and why our two choices are evil. There are countries out there in which you do not have to vote for the lesser of two evils, because at least one, sometimes both, sides are not evil. I know I’m being manipulated and forced into this lesser of two evils situation, as I have been almost all of my life, as I will likely be for the rest of my life. “Lesser of two evils” is a false choice, manufacturing consent to be ruled by evil. It’s the reason this country has been getting worse for the average person for several decades. > > So, given that I do not like the democratic party, am not a democrat, do not want a democrat to be president in a vacuum, and do not appreciate being forced into constantly voting for bad presidents with bad policies, I do not owe the democrats a vote. They especially make it hard when they hand me such a bad fucking candidate. > > But I recognize the uniquely bad nature of Trump, and that if he’s not defeated, that’s probably it for even having a managed democracy. So I’ll almost certainly be voting for Biden. But I’m disgusted with my compliance with this bullshit system, disgusted to have to vote for someone I very much don’t want to be president, disgusted that the democratic party is going to keep chasing the Republicans to the right because, what am I going to do? I have to vote for the lesser of two evils! > > There are a lot of people who recognize this, who don’t want to be part of this bullshit system, who owe nothing to the democratic party. Telling them they’re forced to participate in this bullshit system and that they’re never going to get a president that actually has their interest at heart so just suck it up and vote for the lesser evil is a tough pill to swallow. So if you want them on your side, to vote for your party, at the very least, try not to alienate them. We fucking hate this disgusting position that you - as a supporter of the democratic party - have put us in, by allowing your party to be controlled by the same masters as the republican party. I don’t owe you or your party a vote, and I’m disgusted that I’m going to give it anyway. What do you think insulting me and doing a victory lap about the corporate democrat establishment crushing one of the only people in politics who is genuine and wants to improve the lives of the average American is going to do but make it even harder for me to swallow that bitter pill? > > I’m not going to stay home, but other people might. If you want them to be on your team, you should try being persuasive and making them want to be on it and feel less disgusted by being on it, not trying to stick their noses in it and gloat about how they have no choice. Sanders running as a Democrat stinks of political maneuvering to prevent the rise of a viable third party, IMO. You have a transparently corrupt system going on, a dysfunctional one at that; it’s so FUBARed that it’s got to the point where the system presents you with either Trump or Biden as the leader of a nation. I mean, seriously people get your act together. :rolleyes: I’m sorry to say, but your attitude is the death of Democracy, never mind “managed Democracy”, you are bowing down to Oligarchy and they count on you to keep them at the trough. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2020, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413/160 "2020-04-15T10:13:28Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Speaking of the banned poster who called himself **Barack Obama** , the “new” poster **RealFDRdem** sure sounds awfully familiar. Link? And that user name sounds suspiciously close to that old bigot New Deal Democrat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-manwich-bernie-lost/851413.md?page=9)