# Hey, Melissa Harris-Parry - you're wrong, you're stupid, you're ugly (on the inside). **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 1, 2014, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607 "2014-01-01T01:18:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607/221 "2014-01-08T14:45:25Z")
> [@zweisamkeit](#): > > That’s why I wanted to assure you there wasn’t any “gotcha” to my questions. I was just asking generally (which you understood). Thanks, that’s nice to know. > [@](#): > > I’m in grad school for Historic Preservation… Sounds really cool, thanks for describing it. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607/222 "2014-01-08T15:01:16Z")
> [@zweisamkeit](#): > > So, when you’re part of a majority group (in this thread, that’d be white people; in other threads, it could be men or straight people or whatever), it is _really freaking easy_ to feel defensive or take things personally. This is especially true if you’re against the discrimination that the minority group faces. When a Person of Color describes discrimination/shitty treatment s/he’s experienced from white people, or a woman describes descrimination/shitty treatment she’s experienced from men, or an LGBQ person describes descrimination/shitty treatment s/he’s experienced from straight people … if you’re white, or you’re a man, or you’re straight, your reaction might be, “but we’re not all like that!” Sure. But that’s not the subject at hand. This is not about a black person merely describing or complaining about their mistreatment at the hands of whites or historical mistreatment. This is about words or acts of hatred or discrimination against whites. It’s not racist or hateful for a black person to tell a white person that she’s experienced racism. But that’s entirely different from a black person calling an innocent white person, or all white people, racial slurs, or discriminating against whites, or committing a racially-motivated hate crime against whites, or whatever. > [@](#): > > if you’re white, or you’re a man, or you’re straight, your reaction might be, “but we’re not all like that!” > > Don’t post that. They know that. Again, that’s not the scenario I’m objecting to. I’m talking about when a black person DOES come out and say “you’re all like that!” I’m talking about overt racial judgements, not just me jumping to conclusions. For example, you’re talking about a conversation like this: “I’ve taken some shit from white people.” “We’re not all like that.” “I know, I didn’t say that, would you just listen please?” Your advice about avoiding that kind of response is good. But that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about a conversation that starts like this: “You and all white people are all the same - a bunch of cracker assholes who hate black folks.” That’s a little different. That’s not just complaints about suffering from racism, that’s more racism. I have a problem with that. Don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607/223 "2014-01-08T21:38:57Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Sure. But that’s not the subject at hand. > > This is not about a black person merely describing or complaining about their mistreatment at the hands of whites or historical mistreatment. This is about words or acts of hatred or discrimination against whites. It’s not racist or hateful for a black person to tell a white person that she’s experienced racism. But that’s entirely different from a black person calling an innocent white person, or all white people, racial slurs, or discriminating against whites, or committing a racially-motivated hate crime against whites, or whatever. > > Again, that’s not the scenario I’m objecting to. I’m talking about when a black person DOES come out and say “you’re all like that!” I’m talking about overt racial judgements, not just me jumping to conclusions. > > For example, you’re talking about a conversation like this: > > “I’ve taken some shit from white people.” > “We’re not all like that.” > “I know, I didn’t say that, would you just listen please?” > > Your advice about avoiding that kind of response is good. But that’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about a conversation that starts like this: > > “You and all white people are all the same - a bunch of cracker assholes who hate black folks.” > > That’s a little different. That’s not just complaints about suffering from racism, that’s more racism. I have a problem with that. Don’t you? Okay. Let me be clear and honest here: I am rather exasperated and irritated that your reply to me ignores the very first thing I wrote in that post: > [@](#): > > This post is actually going to be a lot of background information that may seem tangental or off-topic to the specific discussion about racism in this thread. But I promise you, it is very much related. I also promise that it really is background info and unless I specifically say so, none of it is in response to earlier posts. I spent a _lot_ of my free time writing my replies _and_ getting points and links/references for the future posts that would enable me to, as I first posted, “discuss this a bit with you so you could perhaps understand why your position is considered problematic”. Look at the time stamps between posts 217 and 218. My goal was to start discussing some general background, “big picture” information and questions _so that there will be a shared foundation when I DO start talking about this thread specifically_. Why? Because my part in our discussion is to answer the question, “why did [multiple posters] find my/ **lance** ’s argument problematic?” The answer is _far_ more complex and nuanced than you realize, and if you aren’t willing to actually _listen_ to the “big picture” information first, I guarantee you will not understand that answer. My evidence for that is this thread (yes, _now_ I am specifically talking about this thread). Every poster you were arguing with, aside from Pit-style insults and flaming and some of **Yog** ’s audacious and intentionally provocative points, _gave you the answer_. In several different ways, even. But you currently lack the necessary background information to understand that answer. It’s like my undergrad seminar on WWI & WWII, which started in mid-1860s Europe and didn’t actually reach WWI until 7 weeks into a 16 week course. Why? Because in order to really and truly _understand_ why WWI started, all of that “big picture” background information was essential. In this analogy, your position would be someone insisting that WWI began because the Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria was assassinated. Meanwhile, everyone who took that seminar would be frustrated as all get out because that was merely the straw that broke the camel’s back; the actual causes for WWI were the long series of events in the half century leading up to the war. The assassination is an overly simplified reason given in high school history because no one has the time to properly cover late 19th century European politics. I’m trying to discuss that prior 50 years so you can _then_ understand the multiple, complex factors that caused WWI. And I only covered maybe the first 5 years of that. And then you snip and ignore almost all of my reply to tell me that that’s not relevant, because you’re talking about Archduke Franz Ferdinand. ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607/224 "2014-01-08T22:28:07Z")
LOL, this is fucking classic. **Lance** I gotta hand it to ya man, if you can take a nice guy like **zweisamkeit** and break _him_ down to the point of exasperation with your willful stupidity, that’s a dedication to ignorance that I have never seen before. Good job sir. At least you’re the best at something. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607/225 "2014-01-09T09:54:20Z")
Has anyone checked whether **lance** is actually the return of **Diogenes**? Because this whole “I’m going to take a reasonable position, reduce it to black-and-white [sic] terms and take it to a extreme and then refuse to budge even when the entire board tells me I’m wrong” style is awfully familiar. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607/226 "2014-01-09T15:44:04Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > LOL, this is fucking classic. **Lance** I gotta hand it to ya man, if you can take a nice guy like **zweisamkeit** and break _him_ down to the point of exasperation with your willful stupidity, that’s a dedication to ignorance that I have never seen before. > > Good job sir. At least you’re the best at something. You keep insisting urgently and insulting that I’m wrong, yet you never manage to actually explain why. You just throw out insults. That kind of crap doesn’t work on me, son. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607/227 "2014-01-09T16:01:22Z")
> [@zweisamkeit](#): > > Okay. Let me be clear and honest here: I am rather exasperated and irritated that your reply to me ignores the very first thing I wrote in that post: Hey, I don’t mind that, but it appeared to me that you were doing more than giving me background. > [@](#): > > I spent a _lot_ of my free time writing my replies _and_ getting points and links/references for the future posts that would enable me to, as I first posted, “discuss this a bit with you so you could perhaps understand why your position is considered problematic”. Look at the time stamps between posts 217 and 218. But you haden’t explained why my position is problematic because you haven’t discussed my position yet. I fully agree with everything you’ve said so far. I agree that it’s a good idea to let people express their frustration with racism without taking it personally or saying things like “we’re not all like that.” But that’s not what I was talking about. If you’re not done giving me your background, that’s fine. But it seemed like you were done. If you want to just let me know what’s next, I’m happy with that. > [@](#): > > My goal was to start discussing some general background, “big picture” information and questions _so that there will be a shared foundation when I DO start talking about this thread specifically_. Why? Because my part in our discussion is to answer the question, “why did [multiple posters] find my/ **lance** ’s argument problematic?” The answer is _far_ more complex and nuanced than you realize, and if you aren’t willing to actually _listen_ to the “big picture” information first, I guarantee you will not understand that answer. That’s fine. It wasn’t clear that you were addressing my point. It appeared you were addressing a different one. I’ll be happy to continue to listen. > [@](#): > > My evidence for that is this thread (yes, _now_ I am specifically talking about this thread). Every poster you were arguing with, aside from Pit-style insults and flaming and some of **Yog** ’s audacious and intentionally provocative points, _gave you the answer_. In several different ways, even. But you currently lack the necessary background information to understand that answer. I’m happy for you to try to give me the answer instead. Please continue. > [@](#): > > It’s like my undergrad seminar on WWI & WWII, which started in mid-1860s Europe and didn’t actually reach WWI until 7 weeks into a 16 week course. Why? Because in order to really and truly _understand_ why WWI started, all of that “big picture” background information was essential. In this analogy, your position would be someone insisting that WWI began because the Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria was assassinated. Meanwhile, everyone who took that seminar would be frustrated as all get out because that was merely the straw that broke the camel’s back; the actual causes for WWI were the long series of events in the half century leading up to the war. The assassination is an overly simplified reason given in high school history because no one has the time to properly cover late 19th century European politics. > > I’m trying to discuss that prior 50 years so you can _then_ understand the multiple, complex factors that caused WWI. And I only covered maybe the first 5 years of that. And then you snip and ignore almost all of my reply to tell me that that’s not relevant, because you’re talking about Archduke Franz Ferdinand. Aside from the fact that you assume that I don’t already know anything about any of this already (I did tell you I am not that young, grew up in the South, had progressive parents who strongly opposed racism, etc.), which I’m willing to overlook, you didn’t just provide your background information, you gave me reccommendation (“don’t do that”) that sounded like you were done talking, and that this was your reason for saying I was wrong. That’s why I responded by saying you had missed the point. Again, I appreciate your polite discussion and willingness to actually support your arguments, and I’m happy to continue to listen – as long as we’re clear about what you are trying to convince me of: that it is acceptable for blacks or other minorities to commit racist or racially-motivated acts or slurs against whites, but not for whites to do that. I’m fully prepared to discuss this with you. Just give me more information about why you’re bringing up different points and what parts are part of your argument, etc. That would help. Please carry on. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607/228 "2014-01-09T16:04:40Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > "I’m going to take a reasonable position, reduce it to black-and-white [sic] terms and take it to a extreme That’s not what I did. I responded to ANOTHER POSTER who took an extreme, unreasonable position. The idea that it’s perfectly okay for blacks to be racist against whites is absurd. It’s completely illogical too. It’s also not a policy that is going to lead to progress. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607/229 "2014-01-09T19:26:14Z")
Just wanted to pop back up and throw out a question. Hey lance, do you think Black History Month or the existence of BET demonstrates/encourages racism? What do you feel about a hypothetical White History Month or a White people channel? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607/230 "2014-01-09T19:45:21Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Just wanted to pop back up and throw out a question. Hey lance, do you think Black History Month or the existence of BET demonstrates/encourages racism? No, nor do I consider to be racism against whites. > [@](#): > > What do you feel about a hypothetical White History Month or a White people channel? We already have Fox News. ---
**Author:** ![Hippy\_Hollow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hippy_hollow/32/4841_2.png) [@Hippy\_Hollow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hippy_Hollow)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607/231 "2014-01-09T20:36:05Z")
My post was eaten, dammit! I posted to say that I run in some of the same academic circles as MHP; in fact I was at a retreat at Princeton with her 2 years ago. I have a co-author and colleague who was on her show, so I have some knowledge of how the show runs. I think she’s pretty bright and witty, and I’m predisposed to taking her side (lisp and forehead nonwithstanding - I think her braids are too tight!). That said, it was insensitive and bordering on cruel to single out that little boy. Actually, that’s more of the fault of her guest, who should apologize as well. I’m not sure what the point of having the picture there was aside from making fun of the Romney family in some way. Problem is, they’re not really in the political spotlight any more, and the target was a little kid who didn’t go on the campaign trail and say dumb stuff, etc. The apology from MHP seemed sincere and appropriate. So it seems resolved to me, especially considering that Mitt accepted the apology. It wasn’t racist and certainly not a fireable offense. She screwed up and apologized. It is possible to make a poor judgment call and not be shitcanned because of it, especially if you have a generally good record of doing and saying the right, respectful thing most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607/232 "2014-01-09T21:42:10Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > No, nor do I consider to be racism against whites. Why not? Its a channel/month dedicated specifically to a racial group, singling them out for honor. Plus, an equivalent channel/month would most likely be protested as racism and not just unnecessary > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > We already have Fox News. True, but all snarkiness aside, if such a thing were being proposed, what would be your reaction? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Luther](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Martin\_Luther](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Luther)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2014, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607/233 "2014-01-09T22:09:32Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Why not? Its a channel/month dedicated specifically to a racial group, singling them out for honor. Plus, an equivalent channel/month would most likely be protested as racism and not just unnecessary > > True, but all snarkiness aside, if such a thing were being proposed, what would be your reaction? completely different having a channel, month or whatever other venue to celebrate a certain group of people and thinking you have the right to go around verbally or physically assaulting innocents because you’re angry about being discriminated … I’m a little thrown off by how lance is being attacked on this issue ? … his stance seems very reasonable … all he’s saying is no one has the right to be ‘racist’ and especially to innocents … I’m not getting why everyone is so outraged by that ? … how can you disagree with that in any way ? … yet no one has said anything at all to someone like yog who’s saying that he/she is justififed in attacking innocents … almost agreeing with that person … pretty ridiculous imo ---
**Author:** ![Grrr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grrr/32/146_2.png) [@Grrr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grrr)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607/234 "2014-01-10T00:05:57Z")
> [@Martin\_Luther](#): > > completely different having a channel, month or whatever other venue to celebrate a certain group of people and thinking you have the right to go around verbally or physically assaulting innocents because you’re angry about being discriminated … > > I’m a little thrown off by how lance is being attacked on this issue ? … > > his stance seems very reasonable … all he’s saying is no one has the right to be ‘racist’ and especially to innocents … I’m not getting why everyone is so outraged by that ? … how can you disagree with that in any way ? … > > yet no one has said anything at all to someone like yog who’s saying that he/she is justififed in attacking innocents … almost agreeing with that person … pretty ridiculous imo Lance keeps insisting that we all think racism is perfectly acceptable from blacks. That is not at all what we’ve been saying. (Yog went off on a tangent about whites deserving racism or some such but that was an anomaly) Racism, as described in the OP, is nowhere near as bad if a white person had done it. This is especially true when you examine the type of person MHP is. One who has devoted her whole life towards fighting racial inequality. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607/235 "2014-01-10T00:23:16Z")
> [@Martin\_Luther](#): > > yet no one has said anything at all to someone like yog who’s saying that he/she is justififed in attacking innocents … almost agreeing with that person … pretty ridiculous imo Not to get dragged back into the discussion, but my contention is that no one is truly innocent. People who claim to be so often profit on the backs of minorities in the past, refuse to acknowledge or renounce it, or continue to profit from institutionalized racism in the present. To claim you’re innocent just because you weren’t born a slavemaster is to ignore all that slavery has done to secure wealth for certain groups of people So maybe a 20 year old white person doesn’t have anything to feel ashamed about because he didn’t own slaves, but if he votes Republican, attains wealth through family fortunes dating back to pre-civil rights era, or feels he’s better than black people and entitled to better things because they are undeserving and poor and have been systematically discriminated against their entire lives, then he’s partially responsible as well An actual innocent person whom I would absolve of all blame would vote to empower minorities, upholding things like the Voting Rights Act, Affirmative Action, etc., would challenge racial and gender stereotypes like voting against people who believe Stop and Frisk is a good policy, do things to reduce inequality, and actually acknowledge that they do receive unfair advantages and not pretend they did everything cause they’re super smart and good. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Luther](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Martin\_Luther](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Luther)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607/236 "2014-01-10T00:43:54Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Not to get dragged back into the discussion, but my contention is that no one is truly innocent. People who claim to be so often profit on the backs of minorities in the past, refuse to acknowledge or renounce it, or continue to profit from institutionalized racism in the present. To claim you’re innocent just because you weren’t born a slavemaster is to ignore all that slavery has done to secure wealth for certain groups of people > > So maybe a 20 year old white person doesn’t have anything to feel ashamed about because he didn’t own slaves, but if he votes Republican, attains wealth through family fortunes dating back to pre-civil rights era, or feels he’s better than black people and entitled to better things because they are undeserving and poor and have been systematically discriminated against their entire lives, then he’s partially responsible as well > > An actual innocent person whom I would absolve of all blame would vote to empower minorities, upholding things like the Voting Rights Act, Affirmative Action, etc., would challenge racial and gender stereotypes like voting against people who believe Stop and Frisk is a good policy, do things to reduce inequality, and actually acknowledge that they do receive unfair advantages and not pretend they did everything cause they’re super smart and good. you’re acting as if all white folks have it good and well … there are a lot of poor whites who will stay poor and who will always struggle … do you think they deserve your scorn and ill will as well ? … also, I’m sure you’re aware that there are actual white folks who originate from countries that had nothing to do with slavery … also, everything you say is being done … plenty of white people are helping blacks and other minorities … here and in other countries … but you seem to expect for any and all white folks to become civil rights activists and dedicate their lives to the black cause … that’s not realistic … everyone has their own daily problems to do deal with … most average people are just trying to deal with their own lives and make sure they have their rent money and food on the table … I understand how you feel … but you have to understand not everyone wakes up in the morning with the goal to go discriminate against you or anyone else … most people are just worried about their own survival ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607/237 "2014-01-10T14:40:05Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Why not? Its a channel/month dedicated specifically to a racial group, singling them out for honor. Plus, an equivalent channel/month would most likely be protested as racism and not just unnecessary Do YOU consider it racism? > [@](#): > > True, but all snarkiness aside, if such a thing were being proposed, what would be your reaction? Oh, wait, now you want a serious discussion? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607/238 "2014-01-10T14:48:36Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Not to get dragged back into the discussion, but my contention is that no one is truly innocent. People who claim to be so often profit on the backs of minorities in the past, refuse to acknowledge or renounce it, or continue to profit from institutionalized racism in the present. To claim you’re innocent just because you weren’t born a slavemaster is to ignore all that slavery has done to secure wealth for certain groups of people I don’t consider myself guilty for the sins of my ancestors. I may have benefited from their crimes, but that doesn’t make me guilty, or responsible. If it does, then there’s all kinds of historical wrongs we could bring up, and that opens a crazy can of worms. And no, you may not assume that I or anyone has has “refused to acknowledge or renounce” anything. Nor am I even responsible for renouncing something that I didn’t even ask for. > [@](#): > > So maybe a 20 year old white person doesn’t have anything to feel ashamed about because he didn’t own slaves, but if he votes Republican, attains wealth through family fortunes dating back to pre-civil rights era, or feels he’s better than black people and entitled to better things because they are undeserving and poor and have been systematically discriminated against their entire lives, then he’s partially responsible as well Okay. But here’s the problem, which you can’t seem to get through your head: not ALL white people vote Republican, attains wealth through family fortunes dating back to pre-civil rights era, or feels he’s better than black people and entitled to better things because they are undeserving and poor and have been systematically discriminated against their entire lives. See how that works? And even if they do, that only justifies complaints about those specific actions. It doesn’t justify any old racist attack on them. > [@](#): > > An actual innocent person whom I would absolve of all blame You don’t get to decide who is to blame or who is innocent, nor the punishment. Just a reminder. > [@](#): > > would vote to empower minorities, upholding things like the Voting Rights Act, Affirmative Action As if those things are above debate and simple questions. If you want to discuss their merits, fine, but you may not simply brand anyone who disagrees with you about them an automatic racist - especially when it comes to AA, which in some cases is racist by definition. > [@](#): > > would challenge racial and gender stereotypes like voting against people who believe Stop and Frisk is a good policy, do things to reduce inequality, and actually acknowledge that they do receive unfair advantages and not pretend they did everything cause they’re super smart and good. Your position comes down you think you know what’s right or wrong and anyone who disagrees is a racist, and therefore any racism against them is justified. So many holes, and so much arrogance. Racism is wrong. Agree, or disagree? If you can’t say yes to that simply question, you have no business lecturing anyone about all this. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607/239 "2014-01-10T14:53:55Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > Lance keeps insisting that we all think racism is perfectly acceptable from blacks. That is not at all what we’ve been saying. Hmm. I’ve seen it said here. I’ve asked about it repeatedly, and had it affirmed. As you admit, it did come up - and I made it VERY clear that this was what I was objecting to (and I never said you ALL think it). But sure, maybe this is all a mistake on my part. So let’s settle this right here and now: Do you think racism against whites is perfectly acceptable on the part of blacks? Please just answer “yes” or “no.” If it’s no, then you AGREE WITH ME, and we’re done, and all that’s left is for you to apologize for all the names you called me if you’re man enough. If it’s yes, then you’re full of shit and we can continue as before. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607/240 "2014-01-10T16:28:43Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Do you think racism against whites is perfectly acceptable on the part of blacks? > > Please just answer “yes” or “no.” “Just answer yes or no” is bullshit lawyer tactics designed to destroy any hint of ambiguity in a very ambiguous area. There. Is. NUANCE. There are shades of gray involved. There is no such thing here as a yes or no question, no matter how very much you’d love the world to conform to your personal preferences. As a person of overwhelmingly European extraction myself, I know how tempting it is to just declare racism over now that the civil rights era is done and try like hell to act like there isn’t any historical baggage on racial relations, but it’s just not looking at reality. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-melissa-harris-parry-youre-wrong-youre-stupid-youre-ugly-on-the-inside/677607.md?page=13)