# Hey movie producers, stop ruining my movies! Women, do something about this shit!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 16, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478 "2013-12-16T17:33:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478/21 "2013-12-16T22:57:51Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > For Star Wars, the romance was totally not part of the source material. The only real love subplot was Han Solo and Leia, neither of which were in the prequels. Lucas could have gone literally anywhere with Vader but instead he chose to create a romantic reason for Anakin going over to the Dark Side. And how would you explain to fans who wanted to know who Luke’s and Leia’s mother was and what happened to her? Duh. It may not have been well done, but you had to include a romantic subplot in there. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478/22 "2013-12-16T23:06:46Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > It may not have been well done, but you had to include a romantic subplot in there. Did you really? You couldn’t just have Anakin already a teenager or adult when he’s introduced along with a romantic relationship already in place? Seems cliched and rather the point of the OP that you have to devote any significant amount of film time to developing romance between Anakin and his baby momma. Worse, that’s almost all she was after the first movie - almost her sole purpose after the first movie was to fall in love with the hero/villain and make appropriate reaction noises when he did or said stuff. Did she actually influence events at all except as Anakin’s foil? ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478/23 "2013-12-16T23:11:23Z")
> [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Well, but they _do_ exist. There are plenty of meaty, well-written roles out there; it’s just that they always get cast as men. But if we take romance out of the equation, there’s often no reason why a given role couldn’t be played by a woman. As Geena Davis points out, [it’s a very simple process](http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/geena-davis-two-easy-steps-664573): just cast women instead of men. The canonical example, of course, is Sigourney Weaver in _Alien_, in a role originally written for a man. And more recently, there’s Sandra Bullock in _Gravity_, which I believe was actually written as a woman. But it’s far too rare to see women cast in roles like these where gender is irrelevant. > > […] > > Ladies! They’re not just for romance anymore! This is such an excellent point, and so hugely important, that I want to go out and tattoo it on every Hollywood producer. I also want to take my daughters to Heart of Dorkness’s movies instead of to the stuff that’s actually out there, where women exist solely to be female, not to be human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478/24 "2013-12-16T23:27:02Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Did you really? > > You couldn’t just have Anakin already a teenager or adult when he’s introduced along with a romantic relationship already in place? > > Seems cliched and rather the point of the OP that you have to devote any significant amount of film time to developing romance between Anakin and his baby momma. > > Worse, that’s almost all she was after the first movie - almost her sole purpose after the first movie was to fall in love with the hero/villain and make appropriate reaction noises when he did or said stuff. Did she actually influence events at all except as Anakin’s foil? I don’t think anyone’s arguing that the romance couldn’t have been written _better_. **Yog** ’s arguing that the romance shouldn’t have been there _at all_, that the details of how Anakin came to father the man who would ultimately both defeat, and redeem, him have no importance in the story of how he became Darth Vader. I’d argue in favor of changing almost every detail of that relationship from how it was portrayed in the movies, except for the fact that the relationship existed in the first place. That much is pretty much the entire point of doing the prequel trilogy in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478/25 "2013-12-16T23:53:15Z")
I agree with your overall point, **YogSosoth**. But there’s one part I really dislike and I think it may be what some others have taken issue with: > [@YogSosoth](#): > > \*\*And I think women need to especially stand up against this kind of shit. \*\* Not only does it ruin movies, it demeans them by showing that they are only there as characters in relation to a male character. Okay, look. This is annoying for a couple reasons. First, Hollywood studios aren’t going to suddenly pay sincere attention to complaints and issues non-industry women have (a lot of women _have_ stood up against this shit and more for years without much progress\*; why would you expect a sudden change of heart now?). Second, there aren’t many women _in_ Hollywood and they’re not listened to, either. The New York Film Academy recently released a study called [“Gender Inequality in Film”](http://www.nyfa.edu/film-school-blog/gender-inequality-in-film/), using research from San Diego State University (I love this link because they put their findings in an infographic, which makes it easy to get the key points in a super quick skim). I want to focus on the section titled INDUSTRY INEQUALITY. There are 5 men for every 1 woman working on a film. In the top 250 films of 2012, women were [ul] [li] only 9% of directors, [/li] [li] 15% of writers, [/li] [li] 17% of executive producers, [/li] [li] 25% of producers, [/li] [li] 20% of editors [/li] [li] and freaking 2% of cinematographers. [/li] [/ul] And _61%_ of those movies employed _0-2_ women in these positions. So you might look at that info and think, “wow, damn. Obviously we\*\* need to get more women interested in filmmaking if we want to change that.” But _women are roughly half of film school graduates._ A female director [wrote about issues women face in Hollywood in Forbes](http://www.forbes.com/sites/lizgarcia/2012/08/24/women-cant-gain-influence-in-hollywood-because-women-dont-look-like-men/): > [@](#): > > Sexism is real and it persists in film and television. I’ve seen female directors openly undermined by male cinematographers in front of the entire crew. I’ve known female TV writers who’ve been fired for getting pregnant but were afraid to fight back lest they be blackballed. Female show runners undermined by their agents in favor of male clients, even by the male writers they’ve hired. It goes on and on. It can be shockingly obvious. It goes unchecked. So women are fighting an uphill battle to even be able to work in Hollywood. If it’s difficult just to get a job as a woman, do you really think their concerns are going to actually be listened to? And how much good would speaking up do if there is a very real likelihood of career-damaging/ending backlash and blacklisting because you’re being a complaining bitch? - the linked NYFA study further down shows that H’wood gender inequality hasn’t really improved since _1998_ and has actually gotten _worse_ in some areas. \*\* as a society, or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478/26 "2013-12-17T00:12:23Z")
> [@eclectic\_wench](#): > > This is such an excellent point, and so hugely important, that I want to go out and tattoo it on every Hollywood producer. But Hollywood producers aren’t the problem - they’ll make absolutely any movie that people are likely to pay money to watch (there really isn’t any other meaningful consideration). Hollywood spends a lot time, effort & money trying to figure out what people will pay to watch. And one thing they’ve learned is what the OP notes: romance sells movies to women. So you probably need to work not on producers, but on women. ---
**Author:** ![eclectic\_wench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ac91a4/32.png) [@eclectic\_wench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eclectic_wench)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478/27 "2013-12-17T00:29:57Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > But Hollywood producers aren’t the problem - they’ll make absolutely any movie that people are likely to pay money to watch (there really isn’t any other meaningful consideration). > > Hollywood spends a lot time, effort & money trying to figure out what people will pay to watch. And one thing they’ve learned is what the OP notes: romance sells movies to women. > > So you probably need to work not on producers, but on women. If Hollywood producers had it all figured out what people actually want to watch, then every movie would be a slam-dunk hit. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478/28 "2013-12-17T01:10:35Z")
I’m with you, **YogSosoth**. Personally, I’m a guy who prefers female characters to males. To me, the best thing they could have done with Tauriel is just have an off-hand mention of her husband back home, and never mention romance ever again. Incidentally, I’ll take this opportunity to recommend the fanfic [The Heads of One Thousand Goblins: A Love Story](https://www.fanfiction.net/s/2539714/) again. As Lord of the Rings romances go, this is a good one. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478/29 "2013-12-17T01:19:57Z")
> [@Kelevra](#): > > I read an interview with Evangeline Lily. She said she agreed to the part as long as she wasn’t in a love triangle. After a couple years of shooting they did some re-writes and she was in a love triangle, but it was too late to do anything at that point. > > And after a moments search [here it is](http://movies.yahoo.com/blogs/movie-news/the-promise--hobbit--filmmakers-broke-to-evangeline-lilly-211339686.html). I liked the subplot, and I wouldn’t really describe it as a “love triangle” in the classic sense. Legolas and Kili are both crushing on Tauriel, but she’s completely oblivious to Legolas’ emotions until Thranduil points it out (and tells her he wouldn’t allow them to be a couple anyway), and she appears to be more fascinated by Kili than enamored of him. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478/30 "2013-12-17T01:41:49Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > [@Heart\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > > > Now, I’ll grant that with such well-known and -loved source material like Tolkien, you can’t just decide that, say, Gimli should be female (although considering dwarf women, you wouldn’t necessarily have been able to tell in that case). > > That would have been totally goddamn awesome. If Jackson had made half a dozen of the dwarves be women without making any other changes, I would have jumped for joy. Personally, **Left Hand of Dorkness** ’s comment made me imagine one of the dwarves commenting to Bilbo halfway through the story “Ah, Baggins…you do realize that you and Gandalf are the only men here, yes?” ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478/31 "2013-12-17T01:56:06Z")
> [@eclectic\_wench](#): > > If Hollywood producers had it all figured out what people actually want to watch, then every movie would be a slam-dunk hit. They obviously don’t have it all figured out. But they do have it figured out well enough to make a non-trivial amount of money. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478/32 "2013-12-17T01:57:01Z")
> [@Kelevra](#): > > That said, I still liked the movie. Although I always thought it was pronounced “Smog” not whatever it is they keep saying. It’s not? How the hell else would one pronounce that name? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478/33 "2013-12-17T02:14:38Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > They obviously don’t have it all figured out. But they do have it figured out well enough to make a non-trivial amount of money. Sure, but like evolution, “good enough” can often be quite a ways from “perfect”. > [@Chefguy](#): > > It’s not? How the hell else would one pronounce that name? “Smorg”. ---
**Author:** ![Infovore](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/infovore/32/420_2.png) [@Infovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Infovore)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478/34 "2013-12-17T02:47:26Z")
> [@Chefguy](#): > > It’s not? How the hell else would one pronounce that name? “Smowg” (as in “down”). I knew that for a long time–I think I found it when I was a kid, in one of those endless bits of history or something that Tolkien wrote. And I agree completely about shoehorning girls/women in as love interests just to avoid the sausage fest. I’d rather just have the sausage than have an insulting or boring female character. I kinda liked the female character in “Expendables 2.” At least she had some skills and could take care of herself, and wasn’t really in love with anybody. Haven’t seen “The Hobbit” yet (planning to on Wednesday) but I’m pretty sure I’m not going to be a big fan of Tauriel (as a WoW fan, I keep expecting her to be a large female bovine-type warrior). 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478/35 "2013-12-17T03:01:16Z")
I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. Gratuitous romance is annoying, predictable, boring and ruinous of some otherwise good flicks. It’s like they just can’t help themselves. They GOTTA put a love story in the suspense thriller. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478/36 "2013-12-17T03:06:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Personally, **Left Hand of Dorkness** ’s comment made me imagine one of the dwarves commenting to Bilbo halfway through the story “Ah, Baggins…you do realize that you and Gandalf are the only men here, yes?” “Dear _Ecthelion_, I never thought this would happen to me…” Anyway, I have the following problems with the Hobbit movies. First, that there are three of them. Okay, I understand wanting to bring to the screen the actions of the White Council against the Necromancer since that does happen at the same time as the events in The Hobbit. It explains where Gandalf keeps getting off to and sets up LotR. But The Hobbit is a fairly short book and there’s not a ton of material about the actions against Dol Guldur. Second, all the overly-excessive CGI action sequences. In the first one (I haven’t seen the second and might not see it) there were too many long, video game-like action sequences which did nothing but chew up time without doing much to advance the plot. The sequence with the rock giants was way too much, most everything in the goblin caves was way too much, and the sequence with the goblins and the wargs was just stupid. Third, the extra additions. There was Radagast (I had no problems with the character and the role he played, but seriously, a bunny sled and covered in bird shit?) and Azog. It looks to me that it continues to get worse with the new movie. Seriously, when I’d rather watch the Rankin/Bass adaptation (or just read the book yet again), I think that’s a major failure on Jackson’s part. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478/37 "2013-12-17T03:32:06Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > I wholeheartedly agree with the OP. Gratuitous romance is annoying, predictable, boring and ruinous of some otherwise good flicks. It’s like they just can’t help themselves. They GOTTA put a love story in the suspense thriller. Actually, a love story in a suspense thriller makes sense - the same type of tension, really. They work off each other well. However, throwing in a little romance so there’s an excuse to have a female character just pisses everyone off. They could, I don’t know, create a female character that actually has a point in the plot? Google The Bechdel Test; women have been bitching about this for years. Granted, there is no significant female character in The Hobbit … You know, they should have made Smog a female. Helen Mirren, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478/38 "2013-12-17T03:43:24Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > and the sequence with the goblins and the wargs was just stupid. I didn’t mind the rock giants so much, but this scene was for me the biggest failing of the movie. The book’s goblins are like nasty vicious children who sing a gleeful song while preparing the fires that will roast you to death. They’re closer to evil Oompa Loompas\* than to Ultimate Fighting Champions–and that’s great. And the dwarves and Bilbo weren’t actually great fighters, so there was a real sense of danger. I liked that a lot. Jackson made a good decision in finding a way for Bilbo to save the dwarves in that scene. But why couldn’t he have done so through trickery, rather than through failed suicide-by-orc? Less Quake, more Assassin’s Creed, would’ve been great. To a lesser extent the scene with the trolls suffered from the same effect. The dwarves in the book come across as total buffoons as they’re captured one by one by the trolls, but it’s hilarious. Jac kson’s scene wasn’t funny, it was just roarsmash CGI. - well, evil **ler** Oompa Loompas. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478/39 "2013-12-17T10:53:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I was mostly joking, but are Elves _not_ tall in the books? Not as tall as humans. The gaunt-willowy-cheek-boney thing is for the movies. Tall Gandalf, too. ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2013, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478/40 "2013-12-17T11:31:48Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > For Star Wars, the romance was totally not part of the source material. The only real love subplot was Han Solo and Leia, neither of which were in the prequels. Lucas could have gone literally anywhere with Vader but instead he chose to create a romantic reason for Anakin going over to the Dark Side. What else would he go over to the dark side for? Had to be love becoming hate. Not really a bad idea, just really bad execution. > [@](#): > > Like **Heart of Dorkness** said, I’m totally for casting traditionally male roles or even just any non-gender specific role with an actress. Women in movies fall into gender narrow stereotypes because filmmakers make them that way. They see “being female” as an character rather than having a female be a fully fleshed out character with gender-neutral desires. Any random character in a movie will be male, and a character will only be female when the character needs to be female (usually because she needs to fall in love with a man and/or be rescued by one). The result is that we see male characters with complex motivations and desires, but a female character will automatically be “the girl” and will do typically girl things. As a result, meaty roles for actresses will forever be dwarfed by male roles and movies will continue to be populated by one-dimensional female characters who serve no other purpose than to be female _and that’s what producers think women want!_ That’s what producers think will make money. And it does. Male characters with complex motivations and desires seem in somewhat short supply to me. About 50% of all male characters seem to be called “man with blood gushing from neck after being killed by hero”. Then there’s the hero, who’s normally got one-liners where his characterisation should be, and whose motivation is normally saving a woman so he can fuck her. Even in those cases where there’s a good main female character (like Orphan Black or Fringe) any and all henchmen will be male. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-movie-producers-stop-ruining-my-movies-women-do-something-about-this-shit/676478.md?page=3)