# Hey Mr. Moto, you sick fucking ghoul. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 14, 2004, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-mr-moto-you-sick-fucking-ghoul/255008 "2004-07-14T02:39:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-mr-moto-you-sick-fucking-ghoul/255008/61 "2004-07-14T15:46:19Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > We have to get beyond whether we should have or should not have gotten in, let’s work on getting out in as few pieces as we can. To me, the guy that figures out where the exit door is would be the biggest hero of all. Hear, hear! **E-Sabbath** - It would have to be a weekend thing, since I’m already way the hell behind on work today just for being in this thread, but it sounds like a good idea. _And_ since I know it’s a political thing, I’ll keep it out of MPSIMS. Probably go into IMHO. See, I’m not so afraid of having my views challenged that I’d put a thread on a volatile issue into the one forum where anyone else would get in trouble for commenting on it. **minty green** , I’m with you on the “two wrongs don’t make a right” sentiment and I guess I’ll have to admit I handled it wrongly. ---
**Author:** ![krisolov](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/krisolov/32/3724_2.png) [@krisolov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/krisolov)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-mr-moto-you-sick-fucking-ghoul/255008/62 "2004-07-14T15:46:47Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > And saying “good job, boys”. I don’t agree with the US government’s defitinion of ‘heroism’ and I don’t agree that servicemen should be commended for meeting that definition. And I _especially_ don’t agree with the sentiment that the general public has some sort of duty or obligation to be thankful to those servicemen because the government has cited them for merit in meeting that bogus definition of ‘heroism’. okay, idiot here’s the definition of heroism, not from the US Government, but from Websters: The qualities characteristic of a hero, as courage, bravery, fortitude, unselfishness, etc.; the display of such qualities. I think objectively each and every one of the men Mr Moto has posted about has certainly met that definition. I agree that we shouldn’t be there. We were lied to in order to justify this invasion. The men and women who went didnt have a choice. However the men in these citations certainly had a choice as to whether they wanted to just save their own asses, or save their fellow soldiers at great personal risk. by refusing to recognize these human qualities I think you do a disservice to anyone who puts their lives at risk to save another. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-mr-moto-you-sick-fucking-ghoul/255008/63 "2004-07-14T15:47:24Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > And I don’t think that’s anything that deserves to be more widely known. The government thinks soldiers it sent to kill people did a good job killing them. Yay us. Soldiers are **supposed** to kill enemy soldiers; it’s in the job description. The problem here is that we are not defending America but invading another country and treating its people as conquered subjects, torturing them in prisons, and so on. But Bush;s guilt in sending them off to war on false pretexts sis in now way a sufficient reason for you to trash them in the manner that you have. Your points on the war are valid, but the way and the forum where you expressed them were completely inappropriate. You don’t win the moral victory by the metaphorical flinging of crap on honor and courage. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-mr-moto-you-sick-fucking-ghoul/255008/64 "2004-07-14T15:51:57Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Very interesting; I can’t really criticize this position, but it utterly baffles me. Do you mean to say that you’d praise Sadir in the following circumstances? > > \*\*The US army discovers a hideout of a group of insurgents; these are insurgents who (for the sake of argument) haven’t been bombing civilians, but have been successfully ambushing US convoys. The US moves in on their position. > > Sadir, seeing the ambush early on and understanding the hopelessness of the situation, nevertheless grabs a rocket-propelled grenade launcher and bulls-eyes a Humvee full of troops, killing a dozen. In the resulting confusion, he manages to blow up another Humvee before a US soldier finally shoots him dead.\*\* > > If someone came onto our boards and lauded Sadir for his heroism in an act that killed two dozen US soldiers, you’d support that post? > > Like I said, I’m baffled by this. > Daniel You’ll note I specifically typed out “Iraqi General” and Iraqi Army". Insurgents I hold a bit lower, but again, I would mourn the loss of the troops, and I would respect the man who “successfully” carried out that defense, if it were above and beyond the norm of combat. This does NOT mean I respect or admire their position, politics, goals, or desires. The hijackers from September, 2001? A VERY well executed mission. Fuckheads, all, but they got that job done extremely well. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-mr-moto-you-sick-fucking-ghoul/255008/65 "2004-07-14T15:59:01Z")
Agreed, **Unclebill**. If you don’t respect your enemy, and his capabilities, you’re dead meat. Any good soldier knows this. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-mr-moto-you-sick-fucking-ghoul/255008/66 "2004-07-14T15:59:47Z")
Oh, for _Christ’s_ sake. How many times do I have to say “ **I know killing is an intrinsic part of war and I am not blaming the soldiers for doing what the situation compels them to do** ”? I think it’s absolutely insane for a government to cite a soldier for merit in doing a necessarily dirty job, and I think saying to the general public “These men and women are doing something which we should be proud of and for which we should be thankful” is a crock of shit. Brian Chontosh’s ‘bravery’ in killing 20 Iraqis has given 20 Iraqi families cause to grieve, to say nothing of the financial and social consequences they’ll be faced with for years afterward. This isn’t something that should be lauded by the US government; neither should Chontosh be excoriated for it. Saying “Bring the troops home now” is not flinging crap at the soldiers, it’s saying “Far too many on both sides have died, to say nothing of those wounded physically and psychically. It’s not worth it; this has to end.” Sending more young men and women into the meat grinder is not supporting the troops. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-mr-moto-you-sick-fucking-ghoul/255008/67 "2004-07-14T16:03:24Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > **minty green** , I’m with you on the “two wrongs don’t make a right” sentiment and I guess I’ll have to admit I handled it wrongly. Apology accepted, on my part. I don’t want to belabor these points, **Olentzero** , and I’d be happy to discuss any point of war and peace politics with you, in a forum appropriate for debate. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-mr-moto-you-sick-fucking-ghoul/255008/68 "2004-07-14T16:03:39Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Can I start lots of threads for the brave men that get killed fighting US soldiers whom are trying to kill them? They also fit the “epitome of bravery”, yes? > > Or maybe 11000+ threads remembering the innocents that have een killed by Allied bombs and bullets. [cite](http://www.iraqbodycount.net/) Sure. Why not? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-mr-moto-you-sick-fucking-ghoul/255008/69 "2004-07-14T16:05:37Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > I think it’s absolutely insane for a government to cite a soldier for merit in doing a necessarily dirty job, and I think saying to the general public “These men and women are doing something which we should be proud of and for which we should be thankful” is a crock of shit. Now wait a minute. When I asked you if it was the thread or the award itself that you disagreed with, you said it was just the thread. Now you say that the citation itself was “insane”. So I’ll ask you again, would you advocate revoking Sergeant York’s Medal of Honor from WWI just because he killed Germans? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-mr-moto-you-sick-fucking-ghoul/255008/70 "2004-07-14T16:10:54Z")
> [@lambchops](#): > > Mr Moto’s certainly well-intentioned, but his series of threads worries me for two reasons: > > 1. Describing soldiers in a conflict as “heroes” tends to suggest that they are fighting for good purposes. That is, the individual characteristics of the soldiers are difficult to separate from the morality of the war, especially if their individual characteristics (bravery, supporting their fellow soldiers) are harnessed towards a negative outcome (the invasion and subjugation of Iraq). > > Therefore, by lauding these soldiers for bravery in achieving their mission in Iraq, you are supporting their mission in Iraq. The threads have a strong political undertone, even if this is not the intention > > 1. Glorifying people for killing large numbers of other people is not correct, whether all involved are soldiers or not. So if I’m following your logic correctly, we should be vilifying George Washington, Ulysses Grant, George Patton, Dwight Eisenhower, et. al. We should also go tear down the Vietnam Memorial wall, the Iwo Jima memorial, etc. And we should do this because they all involve people who killed large numbers of other people. Or did I miss something? ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-mr-moto-you-sick-fucking-ghoul/255008/71 "2004-07-14T16:10:55Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Apology accepted, on my part. Don’t jump to conclusions, there, pal. I admit I handled the situation wrong, but I am in no way apologizing to you. **Monkey with a Gun** , where have I advocated revoking any citations? What the hell makes you think I advocate that, just because I disagree with the government doing it? ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-mr-moto-you-sick-fucking-ghoul/255008/72 "2004-07-14T16:20:54Z")
**Olentzero** , You make me feel ashamed of being a peace activist. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d26b3c/32.png) [@UncleBill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBill)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-mr-moto-you-sick-fucking-ghoul/255008/73 "2004-07-14T16:27:10Z")
These citations are for the warriors and for those who respect warriors. This country was founded on dissent, and it is thriving still today. **Olentzero** fits the description of dissenter well in these cases. He does not respect glorifying the acts of warriors because he does not respect killing, this is a rational way of thinking. There are many people who support this war and the troops without reservation. There are many who do NOT support the war, but still support the troops to the point that these citations do them no harm. And there are those who do not support the war, and do not support the troops, and do not support these citations. Plus every nuance in between. This thread is a well and good place for him to voice this dissent, Bravo! ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-mr-moto-you-sick-fucking-ghoul/255008/74 "2004-07-14T16:31:39Z")
> [@gum](#): > > **Olentzero** , You make me feel ashamed of being a peace activist. Why, because I dare to open my mouth? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-mr-moto-you-sick-fucking-ghoul/255008/75 "2004-07-14T16:32:23Z")
Um, **Olentzero** -isn’t one of your heros one Vladimir Lenin? ---
**Author:** ![Casey1505](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dc4da7/32.png) [@Casey1505](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Casey1505)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-mr-moto-you-sick-fucking-ghoul/255008/76 "2004-07-14T16:35:33Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Why, because I dare to open my mouth? Wrong orifice. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-mr-moto-you-sick-fucking-ghoul/255008/77 "2004-07-14T16:46:17Z")
Thank you for the most part, **Uncle Bill** , but I rather think wanting the troops to come home now and sparing them any further risk of death or crippling injury, to say nothing of the psychological toll exacted, is a far better way of supporting them than believing they have to stay and fight now that they’re there. Why, yes, **Guinastasia** , thank you for pointing out what everybody already knows. Why? Ah, wait, I see it. It’s because the Russian Revolution had a lot of people die in it, so if I come out in support of the Russian Revolution and in support of Lenin, I must therefore support the killing that went on in the Civil War and intervention. All right, let’s try this again. Killing is an intrinsic part of war. It is a necessary step taken to make the cost of prosecuting the war too high for your enemy (or so I understand from reading von Clausewitz). Yes, the Red Army killed a lot of Whites and other international forces. It was a necessity given the situation that the Whites were fighting like hell to restore the old order in Russia, and the Red Army had to fight like hell to keep the new order established. There’s nothing glorious in what is necessary. I don’t know what conditions the Soviet government put on citing for bravery, but I do know I would still have disagreed with it had those citations been based on killing more Whites than the average soldier. Or were you just trying to point out that I’m a dirty Commie and anyone who argues with me is just wasting their breath? Forgive the prickliness, but that’s been done once too often and I’m heartily sick of it. **Casey** - given that you seem to have problems differentiating orifices from joints, I wouldn’t give your opinion too much weight. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-mr-moto-you-sick-fucking-ghoul/255008/78 "2004-07-14T16:47:36Z")
> [@gum](#): > > **Olentzero** , You make me feel ashamed of being a peace activist. Not me. I’m actually glad **Olentzero** is brave enough to speak out. I’m very much against this war. It’s rooted in hubris and grudges, and was predicated on a lie. That said, while I understand that these soldiers were doing the job they swore an oath to do, I find nothing ennobling or heroic about dying in a war we had no business starting in the first place. Flame away, but that is how I feel. Robin ---
**Author:** ![Casey1505](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dc4da7/32.png) [@Casey1505](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Casey1505)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-mr-moto-you-sick-fucking-ghoul/255008/79 "2004-07-14T16:59:26Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > …given that you seem to have problems differentiating orifices from joints… No problems at all. If there were, after reading your posts, I’m sure it’s clear where the confusion would lie, since you seem to have the part of your body containing your oral orifice lodged completely up your rectal orifice. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-mr-moto-you-sick-fucking-ghoul/255008/80 "2004-07-14T17:01:08Z")
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