# Hey Rap/Hip-Hop Fans: How Technically Gifted is Eminem? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 21, 2018, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963 "2018-03-21T13:51:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963/1 "2018-03-21T13:51:15Z")
While coming home from a road trip, Eminem’s “Lose Yourself” came on the radio. I noticed that in the first verse of the song pretty much every line ends in an “OH” sound (gOes, chOke, knOws, smOke). The line isn’t even all that small either. I would venture to say he probably has a good 20-30 words in there that have that strong “OH” sound. This is really awesome songwriting/execution to me! It also lead me to realize that he does this stuff pretty often. I barely listen to any rap or hip-hop so I am about as ignorant as ignorant can be, but based on that and some of his other songs (like Stan) I have to assume that Eminem has to be one of the more technically gifted rappers to come about in a good long while. Am I right in that? Or has mainstream radio clouded my judgement? ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963/2 "2018-03-21T13:57:45Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > While coming home from a road trip, Eminem’s “Lose Yourself” came on the radio. I noticed that in the first verse of the song pretty much every line ends in an “OH” sound (gOes, chOke, knOws, smOke). The line isn’t even all that small either. I would venture to say he probably has a good 20-30 words in there that have that strong “OH” sound. This is really awesome songwriting/execution to me! It also lead me to realize that he does this stuff pretty often. > > I barely listen to any rap or hip-hop so I am about as ignorant as ignorant can be, but based on that and some of his other songs (like Stan) I have to assume that Eminem has to be one of the more technically gifted rappers to come about in a good long while. > > Am I right in that? Or has mainstream radio clouded my judgement? He was 20 years ago, yes. And yes, he is deeply respected for his internal rhyme construction and overall flow. These days, hmm - I am sure some folks can offer thoughts, but **Kendrick Lamar** is held up as a strong “technical rapper” as well. As is **Daveed Diggs** who played Lafayette and Jefferson in Hamilton, where L-MM wrote superfast raps that only Daveed could do. ---
**Author:** ![Deser2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dfb087/32.png) [@Deser2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deser2)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963/3 "2018-03-21T17:43:51Z")
I would suggest going to YouTube (blocked at work so I can’t link) and search for “Why is Eminem the best” and watch the video from Library of Alexandria. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963/4 "2018-03-21T19:32:51Z")
> [@Deser2](#): > > I would suggest going to YouTube (blocked at work so I can’t link) and search for “Why is Eminem the best” and watch the video from Library of Alexandria. Thanks for the link! Given that he used “Lose Yourself” as the example really makes it seem like I was on to something. This is actually the third music-based question I’ve had that I was mostly right on. The other two were about Flea and Buckethead. Kinda makes me feel good. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 21, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963/5 "2018-03-21T19:40:53Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > Thanks for the link! Given that he used “Lose Yourself” as the example really makes it seem like I was on to something. > > This is actually the third music-based question I’ve had that I was mostly right on. The other two were about Flea and Buckethead. > > Kinda makes me feel good. “Mostly right.” You don’t consider yourself musical and are trying to pay more attention? ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963/6 "2018-03-22T00:22:16Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > “Mostly right.” You don’t consider yourself musical and are trying to pay more attention? I wouldn’t necessarily say I’m actively trying to pay more attention, but I definitely wouldn’t consider myself musical by any stretch. I have my handful of bands I listen to and any new music I discover is thanks to SiriusXM, so I don’t really pay attention to music at all…and especially not the technical aspect of it. But I guess if I’m observing things correctly I can’t be all bad right? ---
**Author:** ![Dorjan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dorjan/32/12440_2.png) [@Dorjan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorjan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963/7 "2018-03-22T19:19:45Z")
Em is part of the Holy Trinity of Hip Hop MCs. I leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine the other two. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963/8 "2018-03-22T19:24:58Z")
> [@Sir\_T-Cups](#): > > I wouldn’t necessarily say I’m actively trying to pay more attention, but I definitely wouldn’t consider myself musical by any stretch. I have my handful of bands I listen to and any new music I discover is thanks to SiriusXM, so I don’t really pay attention to music at all…and especially not the technical aspect of it. > > But I guess if I’m observing things correctly I can’t be all bad right? Not at all! Good on you for trying and learning. We all should do it. \*\*Dorjan \*\*- the Holy Trinity? No clue. I would say **Rakim** was the first “Best Rapper” and still could argue for the title, and my personal favorite, **Chuck D** is up there, and I’m not even considering west coast. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963/9 "2018-04-02T20:21:56Z")
Slight bump - [Netflix released a snippet](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOkAfMCp9vQ) of David Letterman’s upcoming interview with Jay-Z in which Jay-Z talks about what makes a good rapper, and he calls out Eminem’s “amazing cadence.” I’m looking forward to the entire interview. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_T-Cups](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed655f/32.png) [@Sir\_T-Cups](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_T-Cups)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963/10 "2018-04-02T23:34:53Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > Em is part of the Holy Trinity of Hip Hop MCs. I leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine the other two. MC Hammer and…Snow? ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2018, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963/11 "2018-04-02T23:41:03Z")
> [@Dorjan](#): > > Em is part of the Holy Trinity of Hip Hop MCs. I leave it as an exercise for the reader to determine the other two. Tupac and Ice Cube? ---
**Author:** ![Flander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8c91f0/32.png) [@Flander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flander)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963/12 "2018-04-10T00:56:44Z")
Top 5: Dylan, Dylan, Dylan, Dylan, and Dylan! (He spits hot fire!) 🙂 Em’s songs range from funny to heartbreaking, his flow and energy from groovy to manic, and complexity of writing from basic four-bar rhymes to multisyllabic masterpieces. There are others who are better at some aspects, but few as well rounded. He is definitely one of the greatest. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963/13 "2018-04-10T03:49:05Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Not at all! Good on you for trying and learning. We all should do it. > > \*\*Dorjan \*\*- the Holy Trinity? No clue. I would say **Rakim** was the first “Best Rapper” and still could argue for the title, and my personal favorite, **Chuck D** is up there, and I’m not even considering west coast. The correct answer is Biggie and Tupac, though it may not actually be the right answer. Em is, maybe, the most technically proficient rapper ever. Not the greatest, but the most skillful. The combination of speed and articulation plus the sheer number or rhymes per bar are still pretty well unmatched. His flow was not totally unique but no one ever flowed like that while also rhyming and articulating at that speed before. Em changed the way people rapped the way Rakim did. There haven’t really been any other innovators in that way since Em, just as there weren’t any really werent technical innovators between Rakim and Em. There are maybe some guys who are better than Em now, maybe. Kendrick is possible, what he does with rhythm is crazy. Lupe Fiasco and Earl Sweatshirt are pretty gifted. Niki Minaj is in her early stuff but… Stopped trying? Don’t know what happened.\* Lil Wayne, like him or not, CAN be (but usually isn’t because he’s usually high). They stand on the shoulders of Marshall Mathers. Em is in every head’s top 5, he is likely your favorite rappers favorite rapper, even with his crappy recent release. None of them are changing things the way he did. Technical skill isn’t everything. Tupac wasn’t particularly technical, neither is Kanye. Biggie, Snoop and Jay-Z pack fewer rhymes per bar but have a flow that is so silky smooth it seems almost like the beat is following them not the other way around. That’s a whole other skill. Lots goes into good rapping. Few do everything well the was Eminem does and is some areas he is pretty inarguably the best ever. \*check out her very at the end of the kanye west song [“monster”](https://youtu.be/Idz9aYXq98U) for one of the most insane amazing impressive verses in hip hop history ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963/14 "2018-04-10T15:47:45Z")
Yep, that all makes sense from a Technical Rapper standpoint - and yeah, the Nicki Minaj contribution to Monster is covered so well in that podcast Dissect’s episode on that track. Just amazing. [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=848917](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=848917) I think \*\*Snoop \*\*has the most distinctive non-technical flow. His first collaboration with Dr. Dre on the movie Homicide, when he adds “cuz it’s 1-8-7 for the undercover cop” was an immediate “who is that? why does that sound so different and cool?!” I am not a Jay-Z guy - I honestly don’t get his flow; that’s my issue, obviously. But Snoop, and maybe on the East Coast, **Q-Tip from A Tribe Called Quest**? Those two are just so damn laid back cool. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963/15 "2018-04-10T16:50:08Z")
Never has there ever been anyone quite like Snoop. His sense of rhythm is almost like a Jazz musician. It’s awesome. For me Jay-Z is just doing what Biggie did but with less battle rap rhyming. Kinda like a laid back Big Daddy Kane if that makes sense. Any both QTip and Phife were amazing MC’s from Tribeca. Andre 3000 of Outkast often gets overlooked in these conversations too. He’s got an amazing flow also. Personally I think of flow as different and distinct from technical abilities. That may just be me. Flow is a feel thing. It’s about the groove, while technical skill is about precision and word choices and complexity while maintaining intelligibility. One of my favorite verses from a battle rap style song\* calls out underground rappers from the early 2000s that "To all you fake dictionary emcees, get off that Half of y’all don’t understand your own rhymes and soft batch(?) They straight at open mics, we put them out on the street Take away their dope beat, let 'em rhyme and they weak And the mic can be a decieving device Muffle your rhymes so they ain’t clear and concise That’s what I think about whenever I think about technical rappers. Do their rhymes make sense? Is it actually the right word for the job or is it just a good word that rhymes? Would this work on its own without the beat? - one of my favorite songs of all[F. H. H.](https://youtu.be/R5UTzJ2KWXw)by producer RjD2 and emceed by Jakki da motamouth off Deadringer. If you like instrumental hip hop its a must listen. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963/16 "2018-04-10T17:38:13Z")
> [@NAF1138](#): > > Never has there ever been anyone quite like Snoop. His sense of rhythm is almost like a Jazz musician. It’s awesome. For me Jay-Z is just doing what Biggie did but with less battle rap rhyming. Kinda like a laid back Big Daddy Kane if that makes sense. > > Any both QTip and Phife were amazing MC’s from Tribeca. Andre 3000 of Outkast often gets overlooked in these conversations too. He’s got an amazing flow also. > > Personally I think of flow as different and distinct from technical abilities. That may just be me. Flow is a feel thing. It’s about the groove, while technical skill is about precision and word choices and complexity while maintaining intelligibility. > > One of my favorite verses from a battle rap style song\* calls out underground rappers from the early 2000s that > "To all you fake dictionary emcees, get off that > Half of y’all don’t understand your own rhymes and soft batch(?) > They straight at open mics, we put them out on the street > Take away their dope beat, let 'em rhyme and they weak > And the mic can be a decieving device > Muffle your rhymes so they ain’t clear and concise > > That’s what I think about whenever I think about technical rappers. Do their rhymes make sense? Is it actually the right word for the job or is it just a good word that rhymes? Would this work on its own without the beat? > > - one of my favorite songs of all[F. H. H.](https://youtu.be/R5UTzJ2KWXw)by producer RjD2 and emceed by Jakki da motamouth off Deadringer. If you like instrumental hip hop its a must listen. All good - I need to dig into Jay-Z at some point just to develop an educated POV. Same with Nas’ Illmatic. Sorry for the nitpick, but Q-Tip and Phife aren’t from Tribeca; they are from Queens. The Q stands for Queens in his name. I watched the documentary that Michael Rapaport directed on them. I love that description of Snoop - yes, a jazz musician’s phrasing. ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963/17 "2018-04-10T17:47:29Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > All good - I need to dig into Jay-Z at some point just to develop an educated POV. Same with Nas’ Illmatic. > > Sorry for the nitpick, but Q-Tip and Phife aren’t from Tribeca; they are from Queens. The Q stands for Queens in his name. I watched the documentary that Michael Rapaport directed on them. > > I love that description of Snoop - yes, a jazz musician’s phrasing. Ha, that was my phone auto correcting Tribe. Ha. I didn’t notice. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2018, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963/18 "2018-04-10T21:03:59Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > All good - I need to dig into Jay-Z at some point just to develop an educated POV. Same with Nas’ Illmatic. > > Sorry for the nitpick, but Q-Tip and Phife aren’t from Tribeca; they are from Queens. The Q stands for Queens in his name. I watched the documentary that Michael Rapaport directed on them. > > I love that description of Snoop - yes, a jazz musician’s phrasing. RIP Phife Dawg. If you like a smooth jazzy flow in your hip hop, you can’t go past Ishmael Butler of Digable Planets: [Nickel Bag](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUYvjhsL5a4) is such a cool, laid-back track. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963/19 "2018-04-12T00:09:28Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > RIP Phife Dawg. If you like a smooth jazzy flow in your hip hop, you can’t go past Ishmael Butler of Digable Planets: [Nickel Bag](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUYvjhsL5a4) is such a cool, laid-back track. Oh yeah! Love them. I love **Tricky off Massive Attack’s Protection** , too - **Karmacoma** : [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi76bxT7K6U](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi76bxT7K6U) ---
**Author:** ![NAF1138](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naf1138/32/3245_2.png) [@NAF1138](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NAF1138)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2018, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963/20 "2018-04-12T00:16:17Z")
Tricky came so close to being great. I have no idea what happened other than trip hop as a genre kind of dying. Anyway, if the OP will allow it, I would gladly talk all day about Nas (maybe the more direct influence of Eminem’s style?) It’s a shame that nothing he did after Illmatic was as great as Illmatic… But nothing anyone else did was either so its kind of ok. I don’t quite get Jay-Z either though. I mean, he’s fine. He’s got a nice flow. But otherwise, eh. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-rap-hip-hop-fans-how-technically-gifted-is-eminem/810963.md?page=2)