Hey teachers re: "I'm not going to be an X, so why do I have to learn Y?"

In My Humble Opinion
41

“The fact you asked the question means you have no idea whatsoever what the purpose of an education is.” (Note, there is an implied blame of the education system here to not inoculate students into the purpose of learning stuff, any stuff, from Day One is.)

“And by the way: You will be in a situation where knowing Y is helpful. Sadly, you will not recognize it and die thinking you wasted your time learning Y when in fact you wasted your time not getting something done well because you failed to use Y.”

42

Short answer: “You don’t know enough to know what you need to know.”

Long answer: “In a few short years, you’ll be out working a job in order to pay for the food you eat, the car you drive, and the house you live in. And that job will most likely require you to do things that you have no interest in doing and see no point in doing. But you will have to do those things anyway because a person who has authority over you wants you to do them. And you will have to do those things to the satisfaction of that authority or face unpleasant consequences. So learning the material of this course is practice for that. And ironically, the more you learn now, the less time you will spend doing these things in the future.”

43

“So you plan on being the first doctor who never uses any drugs, anesthetics, nothing? Then you won’t be a doctor, you’ll be a faith healer.” (“I’m going to be a doctor, I don’t need Chemistry!”)

44

I got this all the time in remedial algebra classes I taught. Thousands of kids somehow get out of high school and into college without knowing even the basics of fractions and percents and they think they are clear for the rest of their lives. I understand why they are disappointed when they find out they can’t skate by anymore.

“You are paying the university to teach you what you need to know about __________ and they have decided that you need to make up the beginner classes you should have had in high school. If you don’t trust the university to know this stuff you should ask for your money back. Please.”

45

You like money, don’t you? Being smarter doesn’t automatically mean you will be richer, but being dumber definitely does mean you will be poorer. And being poor sucks.

46

**In General: ** You like your friends, right? I mean, whether you’ve got just a couple people you hang out with or you’re best friends with everyone in the school, you like having friends and you don’t like being left out of the fun, right? It’s true that modern societies are now networks of highly specialized individuals who can do excellent jobs in their professions and could never achieve that kind of excellence if they couldn’t specialize. And it’s great that you want to become a specialist. On the other hand, even modern societies continue to dislike people whose sole focus is on their specialty – to the exclusion of unrelated fields. We call those people selfish, self-centered, egotistical, boorish, and a lot of other words and phrases that are quite negative. Aside from what you do to earn the money that you need to survive, don’t you want to be able to interact and converse with people whose interests include and stretch beyond your own – in other words, have friends? Or would you rather be a selfish, self-centered, egotistical boor that everyone will avoid and refuse to invite anywhere?

Basic Algebra: You have three dimes, a quarter, seven nickels, fourteen pennies, and a dollar bill. You want to buy a hamburger and a small and from the dollar menu at McDonald’s. Each one is a dollar, how convenient! Are you sure you have enough money? You do know they charge tax at restaurants, don’t you? This is exceedingly simple algebra and if you don’t comprehend 3d+q+7n+14p+D=T ? (h+s)*t then you will always be wasting your money – or going hungry.

**Basic Geometry **[Anecdote]: When I worked in the administrative office of a guy who ran several gyms, the facilities manager called me on the phone. His normal job was to maintain the machines and make sure the janitorial subcontractor’s employees did a decent job of keeping the gyms clean. But the owner had decided a juice bar would be a nice fad attraction to add to his gym and tasked the facilities manager with describing the space so I could place a classified ad in the paper. So “Mike” called me on the phone to say, “Joe wants me to put out an ad for a juice-bar in this space. How do I figure out how big it is?”

“With a tape-measure.” I responded.

“I know that, jerk-wad!” Mike told me, “What’d’ya think I’m stupid?”

“No, no.” I assured him, “Just tell me the square footage and I’ll call the newspaper.”

“Well that’s the problem.” Mike revealed, “It’s not a square – it’s not even rectangular. It’s really a big giant triangle.”

“Oh! Well…” I responded far too quickly, “Then tell me how many triangular feet it is.”

“Okay, where should I start?” he asked, then immediately wondered, “Why are you laughing?”

English, languages, philosophy, history: During each of the last few recessions I’ve seen, various colleges have slashed these departments in favor of expanding business schools and profession-oriented departments (Nursing, Journalism, Advertising, etc.). Yale and Harvard have consistently offered the same response when asked why they’re not following suit: It’s fine for other colleges to encourage the maintenance and continuing operation of existing businesses, but the ability to think critically, analyze and produce abstract concepts, and evaluate trends, patterns, and arguments is the foundation upon which new industries and opportunities are created.

Also, regarding languages and mathematics: For years, studies have been coming out that keep confirming the inverse correlation between multiple language ability and Alzheimer’s risk/onset/severity. Similar studies have been confirming the inverse correlation between mathematical ability and Alzheimer’s risk/onset/severity. [I think there was a similar observation regarding musical ability, too, but I’m not sure.] So even if you don’t plan to do calculus or speak anything but your local language as a multi-billionaire bicycle mechanic, learning extra math or languages will help keep your brain from rotting when you get old.

Classics and human studies: The push from corporations has been to downplay these fields and emphasize degrees in STEM and business fields – STEM to create products and Business to generate profits from the exploitation of those products (and the people who make them). What they fail to understand is that the other facets of business – marketing, public relations, personnel management, etc. – draw from these fields in order to effectively reach and manipulate their targets (i.e. sell products, motivate workers, etc.) so a businesses can continue to thrive rather than flash and fizzle out.

Last, but not least: Logic
My professor in college had a great way of motivating the class. There would always be one student or another who didn’t understand the day’s lesson and the professor would usually stop about 3/4’s of the way through the hour and tell everyone, “It’s okay if you don’t get this stuff. Not everybody does, and the ability to think logically and critically is actually a detriment in some jobs. In fact there’s a lot of recruiters going around trying to find people who can’t handle logic and rational thinking. We need you on the front lines and we certainly don’t want you asking why you’re there.”
—G!
Never try to teach a pig to sing
It’s a waste of your time – and it annoys the pig.

47

My answer depends on what the Y is. I’ve never yet heard of a job where physics doesn’t apply… but knowing how it applies depend on the job.

48

My 6th grade teacher told my class, “A lot of you will end up in jobs that don’t even exist yet. Who can tell what you’ll need to know?”

Edit: This was over 40 years ago. In my case, he was right.

49

Though to be perfectly honest, I have never found a use for knowing about the Treaty of Portsmouth, while it was a real kick to be driving on base in Kittery and spotting the building it was signed in, and being able to go in and see the actual room :stuck_out_tongue:

50

Not algebra. Addition [to get the total of the money in your pocket] and addition to total up the 2 items you want in foods [two bucks, if both are off the dollar menu] and as you don’t happen to have at least two bucks, you can only get one item. I don’t know anybody who looks at a handful of money and doesn’t actually add it up [hm, dollar twenty five, and thirty five is fiftyfive, sixtyfive, seventy five, eighty five and fourteen is ninety nine. 2 things is two bucks, so nope. Guess I will just get a <whatever>]

And yes, I have stood behind enough people listening to them do this sotto voce to understand how people generally do it. Perhaps not math whizzes, but us common folks.

51

Okay, I’ll bite…how does Physics apply in, say, Nursing?

Only thing I can think of is way outdated, which is that once upon a time, you’d control the drip rate of an IV bag by raising or lowering it, but we don’t do that anymore. And it’s not like there was a formula in use, you’d just raise it until the drips counted per minute was what you wanted.

I think Physics is way cool, and I do hope to study it someday, but I can’t say that I’ve found it needed in my career.

52

“Because you are an ignorant little turd and the ignorance is something you could change.”
-a teacher

53

True

That is probably the worst way to put math. Certainly some degree of memorizing fundamental steps is required, but most math is based on understanding logical rules and how they interact with fundamental assumptions, not adhering to some set of predefined steps. As it applies to real life, it’s more about how to come up with your own set of steps, based on what you already know, to solve a problem based on how it relates to other, similar problems you’ve solved.

54

I will say this: years and years of dealing with teenagers have taught me that few of these explanations really work, and those that do work only with a few kids. Kids may superficially agree, may remember what you say and repeat it back to you, to themselves, and even to others, but it doesn’t change behavior. In the classroom, the vast majority of kids are motivated by one of these three things:

  1. Genuine passion for the subject matter on the part of the teacher. This was my original point in the thread and I stand by it.

  2. A teacher that is so admirable, fascinating, and/or likable that the kid wants to impress them or, at least, not disappoint them.

  3. A course constructed in such a way that the easiest way to get a solid grade is to learn the material. This doesn’t mean making the grading incredibly difficult, but it does mean tying the grade more tightly to learning than to compliance.

The vast majority of kids are motivated by one of those three things, and a good teacher has all three going all the time.

55

Ummmm…with respect, you’ve been doing basic (very basic) algebra without even knowing it. My example was somewhat complex (and intentionally a trick question), but the point was more to argue that it’s an every-day occurrence.

Try another: You’re driving to pick up your kid from the babysitter’s after work and traffic is slower than the usual average of 90mph on the freeway. People aren’t even doing the speed-limit, for Ford’s sake, they’re only averaging 60 miles-per-hour. You call the babysitter on your smartphone (after looking around to make sure there’s no cops watching) and tell the sitter you’re going to be a little bit late. You’re passing a highway sign that says the exit is 18 miles ahead, so you say “It’s okay, I’ll be reaching your exit in MM minutes and after that we know you’re only ten minutes away.”

How did you figure out the value of MM (assuming you’ll keep going at 60 miles-per-hour on this freeway). And how long will it be until you pull into the driveway? I bet you used Algebra to figure these things out, even if you didn’t realize it. The point (again) is that people use algebra all the time for very common tasks (whether or not they realize it). For that matter, we all use basic geometry and even some basic statistics every day as well.

—G!

BTW: To get the “thirty five” above you must have been multiplying – seven 5-cent coins (7*5=35), perhaps?

Furthermore, 30+25+35+14+100= 204 so you do have more than two bucks. Which two items will you pick?

And, for the rest of you, what’s going to happen next?

56

I’m not a teacher, so my apologies for inserting myself into the thread.

It depends on the subject. I feel most subjects (e.g., math) are important to learn, even if they are not directly used in your career, because they help cultivate you as an individual, exercise your mind, and help you realize what you enjoy doing.

However, I found history to be an empty, soulless subject devoid of any merit or value. In my America, history courses are minor electives at best; they’re not meant for the classroom. If I had to suffer the grave misfortune of teaching a history class, and a student asked me this question, I would sympathize. Then I’d turn on a movie for the class to watch :slight_smile:

(In many ways, I’d be an awful history teacher.)

57

Physics only applies if you want to understand why you do what you do. Let’s take a hypotensive person. Why is the blood pressure low? and how do we fix it? We know that

Cardiac output (Q)= rate x stroke volume

and

dP = Q x R

  • where dP is the change in pressure (or you can think of it as the mean arterial pressure), Q is the cardiac output, and R is the total peripheral resistance.*

How do you treat hypotension? To fix it, you must then either increase peripheral resistance (try dopamine or levophed which constrict peripheral blood vessels) or increase cardiac output (stroke volume x rate) by increasing stroke volume (ie give fluids).

Conversely, to treat blood pressure, you can use beta-blockers (decrease heart rate and stroke volume), diuretics (decrease stroke volume by decreasing the actual total fluid volume) or certain calcium channel blockers (decrease peripheral resistance by dilating peripheral vessels). If you know the above equations you will realize that by using beta-blockers, you may get compensatory peripheral vasoconstriction which can mean increased ischemia in those with peripheral vascular disease and by using vasodilatory calcium blockers, you can get a compensatory tachycardia.

It also certainly helps to have a basic knowledge of optics if you plan to work in ophthalmology and of course more detailed physics if you want to go into radiation oncology.
Real physicists-please don’t shoot me. It’s been decades since I took physics and this is really off the top of my head and very very basic. I’m just trying to demonstrate that it helps to have a basic understanding of the principles involved.

58

To answer the OP, however, I would recommend simply quoting the following each time the student complains (I know it worked for at least two dopers):

The chief purpose of education is to train the mind and the will to do the work that has to be done, when it ought to be done, whether you want to do it or not.

Although my father takes credit for this, I believe it arose from a paraphrasing of a Thomas Huxley quote:

59

Fair enough…but I learned all that in Anatomy and Biology (and Pharmacology), not Physics. I suppose it’s like that xkcd comic…take it down far enough and it’s all math. Stop somewhere on the line, and it’s Physics.

60

Actually I do it the same way that the other people I see doing it- either they pool the coins in their hands and flip them along one at a time, set them on a table and slide them with a finger tip, or stack the coins by size and type [my way, I was a machinist and hence slightly OCD about sorting stuff by size and type] and then flipping them one at a time 5 10 15 20 25 30 35 … so I might take a quarter and set the stack of nickles next to it and go 25 30 35 40 45 50 55 60 dime 70 dime 80 dime 90 then pennies 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 a buck 1 3 4 and a dollar 204. Not enough as tax is 7 percent which would mean I need 2 14 so I can get one thing. [assuming it is my area of Connecticut that has 7% tax on fast food that is]

And I will add that I know enough algebra, trig [and geometry] to have earned my way to a science based scholarship for college, and worked as a machinist [and then retrained as an accountant, and worked in contract compliance and forensic accounting] and I will still count coins manually rather than do some wild arsed algebraic crap - and I would be willing to bet that if you did an anonymous poll that most people will also confess that they total up money physically instead of using some arcane other method. I will sort my bills into order and physically flip through them, and sort my coins and flip through them as well. A manual single item count is way more accurate than trying to keep a set of individual counts in mind and totaling them up at random.