# Hey, waittaminnit -- how did Karl Rove know Valerie Plame was CIA? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 13, 2005, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292 "2005-07-13T03:21:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292/21 "2005-07-14T13:55:38Z")
Oh yeah - Bush “threw him away” only after a long period in which it had become clear that Tenet had screwed up beyond even Rove’s ability to spin out of it. Even then Bush gave him the (thereby-debased) Presidential Medal of Freedom for his efforts. ---
**Author:** ![Twin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/85f322/32.png) [@Twin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Twin)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292/22 "2005-07-14T14:53:05Z")
How did Rove know? [http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/gannon.htm](http://www.lightupthedarkness.org/gannon.htm) In July of 2003, syndicated columnist, Robert Novak wrote a piece entitled “Mission to Niger” in which he discussed retired diplomat Joseph C. Wilson’s investigation into possible Iraqi purchases of uranium from Niger. In the article, Novak disclosed that he was told by two administration officials that Wilson’s wife, Valerie Plame, suggested sending him to Niger to investigate claims outlined in an Italian report regarding the attempted uranium purchases by Iraq. Novak also identified Plame as a “[CIA] operative on weapons of mass destruction,” although in a follow-up column, Novak said that according to unofficial sources, Plame was an analyst and not involved in covert operations. Novak also stressed that her name and occupation were already well known. “Republican activist Clifford May wrote Monday, in National Review Online, that he had been told of her identity by a non-government source before my column appeared and that **it was common knowledge** ,” said Novak in his follow-up column. “Her name, Valerie Plame, was no secret either, appearing in Wilson’s ‘Who’s Who in America’ entry.” [http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010989.php#010989](http://powerlineblog.com/archives/010989.php#010989) **Andrea Mitchell was asked, on MSNBC, whether it was generally known to news people, before the hullabaloo, that Ms. Plame worked for the CIA. She answered, somewhat reluctantly, that it was.** I know these are from conservative sources, but they are accurate. It seems that her identity and work as a CIA agent was common knowledge around the beltway, even to reporters. It is not surprising that Rove knew this information. He still had no right to reveal this information, though. I cannot comment further, however, as this is an ongoing investigation. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292/23 "2005-07-14T15:28:46Z")
> [@Twin](#): > > How did Rove know? > > […] > > I know these are from conservative sources, but they are accurate. It seems that her identity and work as a CIA agent was common knowledge around the beltway, even to reporters. It is not surprising that Rove knew this information. How do you know that they are accurate? More to the point, it doesn’t pass the sniff test. If it was commonly known, it wouldn’t have been necessary for Rove and a confederate to call at least six different reporters to shop the story around. What was that conversation? Rove: “Hey you know Valerie Plame works undercover for the CIA?” One of at least Six Reporters: “Yeah, everyone knows that.” Rove: “Oh, okay. I was just saying.” Also, Novaks statement: July 22, 2003 Newsday quotes Novak, on Plame’s name: “I didn’t dig it out. It was given to me. They thought it was significant. They gave me the name, and I used it.” (from: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie\_Plame](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Plame)) isn’t really very consistent with a general knowledge argument. ---
**Author:** ![plnnr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@plnnr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/plnnr)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292/24 "2005-07-14T15:44:36Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > How do you know that they are accurate? > > More to the point, it doesn’t pass the sniff test. If it was commonly known, it wouldn’t have been necessary for Rove and a confederate to call at least six different reporters to shop the story around. What was that conversation? > > Rove: “Hey you know Valerie Plame works undercover for the CIA?” > > One of at least Six Reporters: “Yeah, everyone knows that.” > > Rove: “Oh, okay. I was just saying.” > > Also, Novaks statement: July 22, 2003 Newsday quotes Novak, on Plame’s name: “I didn’t dig it out. It was given to me. They thought it was significant. They gave me the name, and I used it.” (from: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie\_Plame](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerie_Plame)) isn’t really very consistent with a general knowledge argument. But remember that Rove’s defense has been that he didn’t know her name and didn’t name her in the conversation. I suspect it went something more like this: Rove: “Joe Wilson is an idiot. There’s so much yellow-cake uranium in Niger that it looks like The Little Old Bake Shop. Doesn’t he know there’s a war on? His wife must be giving him bad information.” One of at least Six Reporters: “His wife? What’s she got to do with it…does she work for the CIA?” Rove: Silence… One of at least Six Reporters: “Mr. Rove, if Joe Wilson’s wife works for the CIA, I don’t want you to say anything, and that’ll confirm it…OK?” Rove: Silence… Rove: “So, anyway, do you think baseball will come back to Washington? I like a good baseball game.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292/25 "2005-07-14T16:00:08Z")
> [@plnnr](#): > > But remember that Rove’s defense has been that he didn’t know her name … Is it? Maybe I missed that, but I don’t remember reading that anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292/26 "2005-07-14T16:12:19Z")
If you GoogleNews “Rove” and “didn’t know her name,” you’ll find [many items](http://news.google.com/news?q=rove%20%22didn't%20know%20her%20name%22&num=50&hl=en&lr=&c2coff=1&client=safari&rls=en-us&sa=N&tab=wn). One, from a Rueters article dated July 11th: “Rove has carefully chosen his words when questioned about the leak. “I didn’t know her name. I didn’t leak her name,” he told CNN last year.” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292/27 "2005-07-14T17:15:25Z")
> [@plnnr](#): > > His wife must be giving him bad information." But Rove and Novak’s point was not to say that Plame was “giving him bad information.” It was to say that Wilson’s trip and report regarding Niger was directed by his wife, Plame, and was therefore not credible. (Frankly, I still don’t understand that argument.) ---
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292/28 "2005-07-14T17:24:59Z")
I suppose the argument was meant to imply that “it wasn’t a _real_ investigation, just a vacation-boondogle arranged by his wife.” ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292/29 "2005-07-14T17:34:37Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Is it? Maybe I missed that, but I don’t remember reading that anywhere. One of the more outrageous efforts of the Republican spin machine has been to suggest that since he referred to Joseph Wilson’s wife, and not to Valerie Plame, he did not reveal the name of an undercover agent. I didn’t check **Papermache Prince’s** links, but you may see something along those lines there. Obviously, this is entirely ridiculous, as saying “Joseph Wilson’s wife is a CIA agent” verus “Valerie Plame is a CIA agent” both reveal the identity of an undercover CIA agent equally criminally. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292/30 "2005-07-14T17:45:01Z")
> [@Papermache Prince](#): > > I suppose the argument was meant to imply that “it wasn’t a _real_ investigation, just a vacation-boondogle arranged by his wife.” Sure, everyone goes to Niger for a good vacation! > [@The CIA World Factbook](#): > > Niger is one of the poorest countries in the world with minimal government services and insufficient funds to develop its resource base. The largely agrarian and subsistence-based economy is frequently disrupted by extended droughts common to the Sahel region of Africa. [Par-tay](http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/ng.html)! ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292/31 "2005-07-14T18:01:03Z")
> [@](#): > > But Rove and Novak’s point was not to say that Plame was “giving him bad information.” It was to say that Wilson’s trip and report regarding Niger was directed by his wife, Plame, and was therefore not credible. (Frankly, I still don’t understand that argument.) The point is threefold: 1. It sets up the idea that Wilson and Plame were in what amounted to a conspiracy to undermine the war on terror and the Bush administration. 2. It attempts to emasculate Wilson; one’s wife getting one a job is still something that a lot of Republicans would consider embarrassing. 3. It’s an argument, so it doesn’t really have to have a point. Just like the way aggression matters more than cards when you’re short-stacked in a poker tournament, the ferocity with which a line is pushed is more important than the logic or truthfulness of that line when reality isn’t on your side. This whole affair proves that there is no argument so ridiculous or so transparently false that the GOP leadership and punditry won’t throw their weight behind it. It’s part of an overall strategy that Rove is famous for–counterarguments so ridiculous that you can’t defend against them without looking silly yourself. Examples include [the whisper campaign against an Alabama Supreme Court judge](http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_09_26.php#003523) known for his work with abused children suggesting that he was a pedophile, and of course his re-casting of John Kerry’s war record. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292/32 "2005-07-14T19:01:38Z")
> [@Hentor the Barbarian](#): > > One of the more outrageous efforts of the Republican spin machine has been to suggest that since he referred to Joseph Wilson’s wife, and not to Valerie Plame, he did not reveal the name of an undercover agent. I didn’t check **Papermache Prince’s** links, but you may see something along those lines there. > > Obviously, this is entirely ridiculous, as saying “Joseph Wilson’s wife is a CIA agent” verus “Valerie Plame is a CIA agent” both reveal the identity of an undercover CIA agent equally criminally. The links do show quotes from Rove saying he didn’t know her name. Well, there is the tiniest sliver of an excuse in that she doesn’t go by Valerie Wilson. But that opens an even bigger problem on the whole “covert agent” thingy. If you know someone works at the CIA, and you don’t know her name, seems like you’d be even more cautious about treating her as a potential covert agent. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292/33 "2005-07-14T19:44:13Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > If you know someone works at the CIA, and you don’t know her name, seems like you’d be even more cautious about treating her as a potential covert agent. Not to mention the fact, curiously ignored in this whole individual-centered fracas, that by outing Plame, the entire front organization created by the CIA and used by Plame and others for cover — which had, perhaps ironically, a WMD investigation function — was instantly wrecked. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292/34 "2005-07-14T20:01:07Z")
Just to dillute **Psycho Pirate’s** Kool-aid a little: [Responses to GOP’s talking points over Rovegate](http://www.theleftcoaster.com/archives/004870.php) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292/35 "2005-07-14T20:01:11Z")
So? [Rove said she was “fair game”.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/12/AR2005071201367.html) What else matters? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292/36 "2005-07-15T01:49:30Z")
Ever the incurable optimist, I’m still Hoping Rove hangs and takes a few others down with him. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292/37 "2005-07-15T02:04:29Z")
> [@Psycho Pirate](#): > > It was pretty much common knowledge to Washington Insiders, anyway. Her husband “outed” her on her website before Rove allegedly “leaked” her identity. > > _Yawn_… I think you are, uh, mistaken. Besides what others have noted, if this was so, why haven’t we heard this used by the Rove camp as a defense? I think it’s illegal to “out” someone even if they are your spouse; how come no one’s calling Wilson a “traitor?” I mean, for outing his wife?) A cite would be very interesting to see. Put up or well…you know… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292/38 "2005-07-15T06:59:54Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Ever the incurable optimist, I’m still Hoping Rove **hangs** and takes a few others down with him. I hope you mean that in a purely literal, nonmetaphorical sense. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292/39 "2005-07-15T07:20:21Z")
> [@bizzwire](#): > > why haven’t we heard this used by the Rove camp as a defense? According to the news today, Rove told the grand jury that he found out she was a CIA agent from journalists whose names he can’t recall. He later confirmed it to Novak in a phone conversation Novak initiated, becoming the second of two senior administration sources credited in the column (saying “Oh, you know about it.”). The source of today’s news, who apparently believes Rove’s version of events, is anonymous. If that’s how it went down, it’s not Rove who revealed her identity. That’d be the unnamed first source who told Novak about it. I don’t know if Rove would still be guilty of something in those circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2005, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292/40 "2005-07-15T07:31:07Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If that’s how it went down, it’s not Rove who revealed her identity. That’d be the unnamed first source who told Novak about it. I don’t know if Rove would still be guilty of something in those circumstances. Come to think of it, confirming her identity might still count as breaking the relevant law. > [@John Mace](#): > > Well, there is the tiniest sliver of an excuse in that she doesn’t go by Valerie Wilson. She _does_ go by Valerie Wilson. Over the last few days the New York Times has referred to her as “Ms. Wilson” and explained that Plame is her maiden name and not the one she prefers to be called. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-waittaminnit-how-did-karl-rove-know-valerie-plame-was-cia/312292.md?page=3)