# Hey! you're cloning your characters, Mr. Writer! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [July 14, 2006, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-youre-cloning-your-characters-mr-writer/364510 "2006-07-14T18:51:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-youre-cloning-your-characters-mr-writer/364510/41 "2006-07-15T18:24:47Z")
> [@Idlewild](#): > > Er. I think Xander is an asshole for at least the first three seasons. I didn’t find him loveable at all. He redeemed himself in my eyes by the end of the series but he had a long way to come from. I think Wash has some insecurities but they never lead him to act nearly as selfishly and downright evilly as Xander. > > Still haven’t forgiven Xander for lying to Buffy about Angel’s soul. Yes, he’s sarcastic, jealous, selfish, and way too quick to judge, but he’s also funny, lovable, loyal, and affectionate and I think those are his more important traits. Everyone on all three of Joss’ shows were assholes at one point and a good percentage (majority?) were murderers, including two of the leads and possibly the third depending on how you want to define the term. Evil, though? Hardly. > [@Skald the Rhymer](#): > > Yeah, but I wrote my post before reading his. What? You quoted him in the post I quoted of yours. > [@Skald the Rhymer](#): > > Because I wanted to leave somethine for the rest of y’all to talk about? Sorry, I just find Wash and Xander (my favorite characters, incidentally) so much more alike than any combination of Willow, Fred, and Kaylee. > [@Skald the Rhymer](#): > > Hmm…what evidence have you that Joss based Wash & Xander upon himself? I’m not contesting, just wondering. No cites but I seem to remember him saying at some point (a commentary track?) that Xander is pretty much an extension of himself and, in the case of my having somehow imagined that, I believe it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Taran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Taran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Taran)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-youre-cloning-your-characters-mr-writer/364510/42 "2006-07-15T18:29:07Z")
> [@Skald the Rhymer](#): > > Largely but not entirely true; I assume you’re talking about _Lords of Discipline, The Great Santini, Prince of Tides_, and _Beach Music_. Will McLean’s father may have been a protypical Conroy abusive military man or vet, but he’s not a character in _The Lords of Discipline_. Also, I think Will’s the only one of the four main characters whose an out & out coward; the others are just overshadowed by the more powerful friends. > > On the other hand, Jordan Elliot from **Beach** , Luke Wingo from **Prince** , and Mark Santoro from _Lords_ are all much closer variations on a theme. > > Oddly, Pat has more variety in his love interests. Susan Lowenstein isn’t much like Annie Kate Gervais who isn’t much like Shyla or Ansley. I can’t even imagine those women being friends–well, Susan and Ansley, but no other two. Good calls on the badass gung-ho friends, and on the love interests. Come to think of it, he does better with his female characters in general. _Lords_ is an interesting take on Conroy’s archetypes, but I submit that they’re still visible. You’ve got an abusive military _organization_ instead of an abusive military _dad_, but their role in the book (make the main character suffer in ways everyone agrees are inappropriate even though they’re not willing to do anything about it, provide the main character with a source of rigid order about which he is ambivalent) is basically identical. As for cowardice, I was mostly thinking of Will and Ben when I wrote that. I guess it’s not fair in general. I have another nomination: Mercedes Lackey. She’s nowhere near as bad as some of the others on this list, but for some reason she really loves the tormented gay supermage archetype. On preview: If Xander had told Buffy about Angel’s soul, she wouldn’t have needed to fight at all. All she’d’ve had to do was show up and let him chase her around for however long was necessary. Still, I don’t think that makes him evil. On the other hand, if Joss really based Xander on himself, then the man must have self-esteem problems beyond anything ever seen. Wash at least had a skill, an area in which he was an undisputed master. Xander had nothing except occasionally-funny reparte and puppy love. That’s no way to live. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-youre-cloning-your-characters-mr-writer/364510/43 "2006-07-15T18:37:23Z")
> [@Sage Rat](#): > > Most of his characters aren’t really enough of a character to say he is reusing, but indeed. > > At some point in the last decade he added the thirteen or fourteen year old black girl that everyone for a square mile wants to throw down and have passionate sex with. Trying to envision what prompted this exact character is pretty guaranteed to squick me out. You’ve… _read_ one in the past ten years? I don’t like to rag people on their taste in literature, but there’s such a thing as throwing good energy after bad, you know. Particularly if you’re over, say, thirteen. If you get hit by a bus tomorrow, you’re really gonna regret that time. Stephen King is only an example of the tendancy of a whole lot of writers to write about writers, if that counts. His are different, but not so different that I’d make a point of it, if you know what I mean. Anne McCaffery’s headstrong ladies got terribly boring at some point when I was a teenager. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-youre-cloning-your-characters-mr-writer/364510/44 "2006-07-15T18:59:43Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Yes, he’s sarcastic, jealous, selfish, and way too quick to judge, but he’s also funny, lovable, loyal, and affectionate and I think those are his more important traits. Everyone on all three of Joss’ shows were assholes at one point and a good percentage (majority?) were murderers, including two of the leads and possibly the third depending on how you want to define the term. I can’t recall Kaylee or Zoe ever being assholes; of course they didn’t have time. > [@](#): > > What? You quoted [Revenant Threshold] in the post I quoted of yours. You can’t expect us Rhymers to make sense in human terms, or to always pay attention to what we’re quoting. > [@](#): > > Sorry, I just find Wash and Xander (my favorite characters, incidentally) so much more alike than any combination of Willow, Fred, and Kaylee. Except that Wash was more skilled and confident than Xander–except of course for his fears about Mal & Zoe. And that was because he could see he had married up. (Of course, that was inevitable, given that it was Zoe; she couldn’t help but marry down.) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-youre-cloning-your-characters-mr-writer/364510/45 "2006-07-15T19:01:40Z")
> [@Taran](#): > > Good calls on the badass gung-ho friends, and on the love interests. Come to think of it, he does better with his female characters in general. Which, we you think about it, is odd for a male writer. _Lords_ is an interesting take on Conroy’s archetypes, but I submit that they’re still visible. You’ve got an abusive military _organization_ instead of an abusive military _dad_, but their role in the book (make the main character suffer in ways everyone agrees are inappropriate even though they’re not willing to do anything about it, provide the main character with a source of rigid order about which he is ambivalent) is basically identical. As for cowardice, I was mostly thinking of Will and Ben when I wrote that. I guess it’s not fair in general. I have another nomination: Mercedes Lackey. She’s nowhere near as bad as some of the others on this list, but for some reason she really loves the tormented gay supermage archetype. On preview: If Xander had told Buffy about Angel’s soul, she wouldn’t have needed to fight at all. All she’d’ve had to do was show up and let him chase her around for however long was necessary. Still, I don’t think that makes him evil. On the other hand, if Joss really based Xander on himself, then the man must have self-esteem problems beyond anything ever seen. Wash at least had a skill, an area in which he was an undisputed master. Xander had nothing except occasionally-funny reparte and puppy love. That’s no way to live. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-youre-cloning-your-characters-mr-writer/364510/46 "2006-07-15T19:12:25Z")
But the king is … Stephen King. I just watched Dreamcatchers not to long ago. It seemed to me that the Stand By Me boys just went sci fi. And having read only about three of his books and seen a few more movies, he seems to recycle a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2006, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-youre-cloning-your-characters-mr-writer/364510/47 "2006-07-15T19:15:54Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > You’ve… _read_ one in the past ten years? I don’t like to rag people on their taste in literature, but there’s such a thing as throwing good energy after bad, you know. Particularly if you’re over, say, thirteen. If you get hit by a bus tomorrow, you’re really gonna regret that time. He has good books. None recently, but previous to modern times his books were at minimum regularly published and regularly entertaining. Entertainment is a valid reason for reading a book as well. Some might say the principal one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hey-youre-cloning-your-characters-mr-writer/364510.md?page=2)