# Hi, Dio! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 21, 2008, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910 "2008-11-21T21:18:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/61 "2008-11-22T00:49:51Z")
> [@A\_Priori\_Tea](#): > > It’s a distinction that I expect intelligent people to understand, and have the decency not to accuse their peers of committing a crime when being falsely accused of that exact crime is a worry that said peers must deal with in their profession. > > If you don’t care whether someone is a criminal or not, by the only definition that counts, that’s your burden to bear. It doesn’t make you any less wrong, and it doesn’t make my expectation of using accurate terms and having intelligent, well-defined discourse unreasonable. > > There are lots and lots of terms available for the woman in the article that do not include accusations of criminal activity: dom, domme, pro dom/me, professional dominant, dominatrix, sex worker, and on and on. I take umbrage with the one that is so inaccurate as to be dangerous when used against someone in her profession. Someone calling you a prostitute isn’t equivalent to accusing you of a crime. For one, as I’ve already stated, prostitute is both a codified legal term (in some jurisdictions) and a common-usage word. Secondly, this is a multinational message board–and in some places the most blatant forms of prostitution (exchanging penetrative sexual intercourse for money) is entirely legal. You can’t really expect that people monitor their word usage and consult the laws of whatever jurisdiction the _poster to whom they are referring_ lives in, that is ludicrous–especially when no one is making any criminal allegations but rather applying what they believe to be the most accurate general descriptor. ---
**Author:** ![A\_Priori\_Tea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@A\_Priori\_Tea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Priori_Tea)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/62 "2008-11-22T01:01:51Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > Well, this is a general topic message board, not a BDSM message board. I can see some contexts where you might have a point, but you can’t really expect that society at large conforms with your general expectations when what “pro doms” do would be considered prostitution by much of society at large. If at any point there was a **legal** debate then you might have a point, from what I’ve seen of this and the linked-to thread, no legal debate was ongoing. I don’t think anyone was unaware that in most states prostitution (or some variation) is a codified criminal act. > > As a similar example, if I got into a drunken brawl with someone outside of a bar and they ended up dead some people would call me a murderer. Under the eyes of the law it would be very doubtful I’d be convicted of murder (in my state) for that action. But that doesn’t mean that to call someone who violently killed someone a “murderer” is “wrong” just because it doesn’t match the legal definition. > > [As an aside about 15 years ago a friend of mine was giving a coworker a ride home from work. Her estranged husband drove them off the interstate and murdered both of them, my friend first and then he chased his screaming wife 200 yards down the interstate and eventually shot her several times in the back. This man was not convicted of murder, but manslaughter, that does not mean I’m wrong to call him a murderer.] > > Many legal terms are also common-usage words which have looser (and entirely correct) meanings. The only real complaint you could raise is if someone claimed you were a criminal, or claimed you were a “convicted prostitute” (assuming you aren’t either of those things.) You do have something of a point that it is a distinction that most people do not make. However, I think it becomes an important distinction to make when you’re dealing with a profession that stands a chance of being falsely accused of the crime, simply for doing their jobs. To make a different analogy: some strippers engage in prostitution, and many strippers are prosecuted for prostitution, some more accurately than others. Stripping looks a lot like prostitution, if you cast it in the right light (you get naked and grind on his crotch for money? yeah, sure, it’s not a sex act - and people who engage in sex acts for money are prostitutes). Strippers are, therefore, understandably touchy about being called prostitutes (or hookers, even more charmingly). It’s an important distinction to make, because a) it’s legally wrong and b) it’s factually wrong - the situations are materially different. On preview: you know, part of what I’m taking issue with here is laziness. People don’t want to use a perfectly accurate word or words that are unfamiliar to them, so they jump to a different (and much less accurate) word. There are LOTS OF OTHER WORDS BESIDES PROSTITUTE that could easily be used, and people jump to prostitute anyway, regardless of its inaccuracy. I don’t expect everyone to pre-emptively censor their use of particular words; however, I don’t think it’s outside the realm of common courtesy to ask that a particular word not be used, when it’s provably inaccurate and stated to be undesirable. Or, to put it in your analogy: if you killed someone in a drunken brawl, and then participated in a thread about the effects of having killed someone, I don’t think it would be unreasonable to ask participants in that thread not to refer to you as a murderer, given that the accusation of murder has a direct bearing on your life. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/63 "2008-11-22T01:09:59Z")
> [@A\_Priori\_Tea](#): > > This is what cracks me up about the sex laws in our country. They make prostitution illegal, and then prosecute people who engage in prostitution under a whole different statute. Well, because it’s more difficult to catch someone in prostitution. It’s a whole lot easier to catch them hanging out a sign that says “Massage” without a massage license. It’s used because it’s a common front. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/64 "2008-11-22T01:13:02Z")
After checking out Dio’s posts in the thread in question, I can’t help but wonder why he would bother to hang in there toi the extent that he did. ---
**Author:** ![A\_Priori\_Tea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@A\_Priori\_Tea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A_Priori_Tea)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/65 "2008-11-22T01:13:53Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > Well, because it’s more difficult to catch someone in prostitution. It’s a whole lot easier to catch them hanging out a sign that says “Massage” without a massage license. It’s used because it’s a common front. I get the logic, at least mostly - it’s a matter of practicality, and prosecuting the thing that’s easiest to get a slam dunk on. It doesn’t make it less amusing to me that it’s so hard to enforce the laws for their intended purpose that they end up busting people for licensing and code violations when their real crime is sex. (I think now we have three mini-threads in one, and I’m starting to go in circles. Forgive me if I’m making less sense than usual.) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/66 "2008-11-22T01:27:06Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > If I get my jollies by rolling around nude in hot pizza, does that make the Domino’s guy a prostitute? > > Need answer fast! OUCH. [sub]That is all.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/67 "2008-11-22T01:39:44Z")
But we are not lawyers, and we are not in a courtroom. It is silly to get offended at people because they are not using the proper legal terms outside of a legal setting. Your position, in summary, is “It’s not prostitution because they get the johns to shove the dildo up their _own ass_!” Do you really have such a hard time understanding that some people don’t buy this argument? ---
**Author:** ![neutron\_star](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/51bf81/32.png) [@neutron\_star](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/neutron_star)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/68 "2008-11-22T01:50:16Z")
> [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](#): > > After checking out Dio’s posts in the thread in question, I can’t help but wonder why he would bother to hang in there toi the extent that he did. Dude’s like a pit bull sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/69 "2008-11-22T02:11:45Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > But we are not lawyers, and we are not in a courtroom. It is silly to get offended at people because they are not using the proper legal terms outside of a legal setting. > > Your position, in summary, is “It’s not prostitution because they get the johns to shove the dildo up their _own ass_!” Do you really have such a hard time understanding that some people don’t buy this argument? Do you really have such a hard time with the concept that it’s not polite to continue using a term to describe someone after they’ve asked you not to use the term? ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/70 "2008-11-22T02:35:17Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Do you really have such a hard time with the concept that it’s not polite to continue using a term to describe someone after they’ve asked you not to use the term? When the term in question is a perfectly polite, accurate, and widely-accepted, yes, I do. It’s not polite to make silly, arbitrary demands of people. “Don’t call me a faggot, that’s offensive!” - fine, no problem. “Don’t call me a nigger, that’s offensive!” - fine, no problem. “Don’t call me a prostitute, I am very careful to avoid doing anything that can legally be classified ‘prostitution’!” - yeah, whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/71 "2008-11-22T03:22:36Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > When the term in question is a perfectly polite, accurate, and widely-accepted, yes, I do. See, where you’re wrong here is, if someone asks you not to use a term to describe them, and you insist on using that term anyway, you’re not being polite. Accuracy and acceptance don’t enter into it. If you know a guy named Robert, and you keep calling him Bobby even though you know he doesn’t like that name, and has politely asked you not to use it when referring to him, you’re just being a dick. If professional doms don’t like being called prostitutes, and you insist on referring to them as such, you may be right, and you may have the majority opinion behind you, but you’re still being a dick. > [@](#): > > It’s not polite to make silly, arbitrary demands of people. Why not? It’s not costing you anything or inconveniencing you in anyway, so how is it rude to ask people not to use a particular term when you’re talking about them? How is it _not_ rude to refuse to do so, simply because you don’t think they should mind being referred to by that term? How is it that you get to decide how they should feel about that? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/72 "2008-11-22T03:35:42Z")
I would classify it as seen through my wife’s eyes. If I pay someone for a session (any kind of session) that provides me an orgasm, I’ve seen a prostitute. Likewise if someone shoves something up my ass, they’d better have “M.D.” after their name, or I’m in a world of trouble. I think it ought to remain legal, as I feel “standard” prostitution should be, but attempts to divorce it from “sexual gratification for hire” are disingenuous. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/73 "2008-11-22T04:08:57Z")
It is an inconvenience, however slight, to have to adjust my vocabulary to suit the whims of every person who is unhappy with the English language. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/74 "2008-11-22T05:31:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The thread specifically asked for opinions in a forum called IMHO. I gave my opinion about a specific scenario involving a prostitute and a customer. I made no value judgements about prostitution or sex work and I even said there was nothing wrong with it. I don’t see the issue here. You passive-aggressive motherfucker! Why can’t you bring your namby-pamby, liberal ass to the point of having an opinion? (dancing with my elbows at my side, my forearms at a 60 degree angle, and my hands flopping in rhythm with my words) Are you afraid you might offend some of our whorish (wow, the spell checker accepted that! must be a real word.) or johnish members? Pussy. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/75 "2008-11-22T05:42:49Z")
> [@A\_Priori\_Tea](#): > > I was, indeed, AFK for a bit - real life called. > > Let me see if I can clarify the whole dom vs. prostitute thing: I don’t mind being called a prostitute because I think prostitution is wrong or “beneath me” - it’s not either one of those things. > > I object to being characterized as a prostitute because it is\*\* FACTUALLY INACCURATE\*\*. I disagree. I don’t accept your distinction. I think it’s bullshit and I think you’re kidding yourself, and I think that YOU think there’s something wrong with conventional prostitution. You’re protesting WAY too much. > [@](#): > > It’s wrong, I’ve explained fairly clearly why it’s wrong, and I object to the continued use of misleading terminology. I’ve explained that I don’t CARE why you object. You don’t have a right to dictate my subjective opinions of what constitutes sex for pay. > [@](#): > > Yes, the services that pro doms provide are often sexual in nature - but that doesn’t mean they are sexual acts I disagree. I think that’s EXACTLY what it means, and I think that sexual service for pay --whether you want to call it an “act” or not – is prostitution. If you don’t want to call it that, I don’t care, but don’t tell me what I have to call it. > [@](#): > > I understand that there is an attitude present that implies because one fits a vague definition of prostitute, that it is a perfectly acceptable term to use. Who are you to decide what’s an acceptable term to use? > [@](#): > > I disagree, and I’m going to continue to disagree. The use of prostitute in this case is **FACTUALLY AND LEGALLY WRONG** , and any opinion (however informed, uninformed, or misinformed) to the contrary is something I am going to take issue with. No matter how many times you scream that, it will still be nothing but your own personal, subjective distinction with no “factual” weight whatsoever. > [@](#): > > **Diogenes** , your assertion that you are not making value judgments or calling people morally wrong is disingenuous, at best. Generally speaking, it’s just a flat-out lie. > > In that thread alone, you said: > > Let’s review some other gems from a past thread you and I have met in: First of all, I said I wasn’t making value judgements about _prostitution_ or _sex workers_. The thread you’re quoting from had nothing to do with professional sex work. I never said I don’t pass value judgements about _anything_. Of course I do. What kind of sociopath doesn’t? Incidentally, I was 100% right in everything you quoted (playing sex games in front of children is bad, m’kay?). > [@](#): > > My problem with **Diogenes** in general is that he chooses to ignore facts when they don’t suit him, replacing them with uninformed, ridiculous opinions and then asserting those opinions as fact, all evidence to the contrary. My problem with him in that particular thread is that there was a perfectly civil, interesting difference of opinions going on until he burst in, started howling about hookers and “Johns” (why the capital?), and insisted that no sex worker has a say in what s/he does with the time alloted once s/he has been paid. Opinions were being elicited about who was rude, the hooker or the John. I said the hooker. You’re also distorting what I said about what sex workers “have to do” during a session. My position was they don’t have a right to decide what the JOHN has to do. > [@](#): > > Let’s review that one more time: all pro doms are hookers (not prostitutes, not till he started backpeddling into more acceptable terminology, but hookers), Backpedal, my ass. I don’t have a problem calling them hookers. I don’t have a problem calling them whores. > [@](#): > > hookers do what the “John” says without question, because he’s paying, and they get no say in what goes on. This is completely false. I never said that. I was saying the hooker doesn’t get to determine what the John has to do. > [@](#): > > By the way, **Dio** , notice how I’m using a lot of words that are pretty hot and push emotional buttons, because they’re inflammatory? I don’t give the slightest fuck, believe me. > [@](#): > > Just for the record: words like hooker, rape, abuse, psycho, slimeball pervert, codependent sex addiction, etc. ARE inflammatory, pejorative, and condescending. Pretending otherwise only makes you look even dumber, which is kind of a feat at this point. Tough titty. Her’s some more inflammatory language. Fuck you. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/76 "2008-11-22T05:57:32Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > It is an inconvenience, however slight, to have to adjust my vocabulary to suit the whims of every person who is unhappy with the English language. Well, Jesus Christ, aren’t you just a delicate little flower. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/77 "2008-11-22T06:00:17Z")
> [@Diogenes](#): > > Opinions were being elicited about who was rude, the hooker or the John. I said the hooker. You’re also distorting what I said about what sex workers “have to do” during a session. My position was they don’t have a right to decide what the JOHN has to do. Can you point to where anyone was taking a position counter to that? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/78 "2008-11-22T06:02:44Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Can you point to where anyone was taking a position counter to that? Everybody who says the customer was being rude. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/79 "2008-11-22T06:11:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, Jesus Christ, aren’t you just a delicate little flower. So, apparently, are all these hard-code “professional” BDSM types that supposedly get all offended about my “impolitely” calling them what they are. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/80 "2008-11-22T06:17:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Everybody who says the customer was being rude. It’s not so much your total failure to understand what’s going on here that rankles, as it is your insistence that you actually know what you’re talking about. Honestly, can’t you just accept that the BDSM community has a particular set of customs and manners? And that people who are a part of this community just might possibly have a better grasp on what those customs are than you do? And that maybe - just maybe - by the customs of the community that this guy belongs to, he was in fact being rude? Is that too hard a concept for you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910.md?page=5)