# Hi, Dio! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 21, 2008, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910 "2008-11-21T21:18:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/101 "2008-11-22T17:40:28Z")
> [@A\_Priori\_Tea](#): > > Or, even better, make it legal and regulate it so that there _are_ safety standards that are easily enforceable! Argh! I thought the problem was that the John wanted a safety standard that the dominatrix didn’t. He asked her to wash it in bleach, she got pissy about it for some reason or other. God knows there’s no fathoming the ins and outs of a relationship like that, but come on. Sure, you can tie me up and pee on me and whip me and all that is just good clean fun. But if I ask you to wash the damn thing of other peoples’ ass juice before you have me stuff it up my bung hole - oh noes, **that’s** out of the question. :rolleyes: You people draw all these weird distinctions and then get upset when even the people involved can’t keep it straight. (You should pardon the expression.) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/102 "2008-11-22T18:04:02Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > Remember that thread a while back wherein one very foolish and emotionally overwhelmed young lady pitted her shitty stepdad for sexually abusing her and affecting her otherwise loving marriage and you called her a liar and a troll? No,I don’t remember that. Do you have a link to the thread. It sounds like I just didn’t believe you, not that I was attacking you for being abused (and I seriously doubt that I played “Jr. detective.” I don’t do that). > [@](#): > > The 2nd time you personally attacked me was in the **meenie** thread about her ghost friend, and on reflection I concede that probably says less about your understanding of mental illness and more about your apparent lack of a sense of humor. In fact I think a lot of people’s problems with you would be resolved if you would just lighten up sometimes. I remember the ghost friend thread. I don’t remember anything about sexuality being in it. I don’t know what I said to you in that thread, but if I mocked you for believing in ghosts, I’m not sorry. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/103 "2008-11-22T18:31:16Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I was asking why she should get to determine what happens to HIM. Why is SHE making rules for what HE has to do? You…really don’t _grok_ what paying a **dominatrix** means, do you? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/104 "2008-11-22T18:35:28Z")
Was [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=409022) the thread you were talking about **Olives**. The one where several of us noticed you had been posting contradictory stories? People can judge for themselves, but you were not attacked in that thread for being a victim, but questioned about having made other posts which seemed to contradict your story. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/105 "2008-11-22T18:37:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > You…really don’t _grok_ what paying a **dominatrix** means, do you? Well, I guess she pretends to dominate, but that doesn’t mean the John has to tolerate any more of it than he feels like. Like I said in the other thread, it’s going to a resataurant and being told you have to eat everything on the plate because you ordered it. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/106 "2008-11-22T18:42:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Well, I still stand by that. Why should the customer be forced to do something he doesn’t want to do? Why am I the only one who thinks consent is important? > > I’ve never attacked anybody’s sexuality, ever. Not that kinks are the same thing as sexualities, but I haven’t attacked SMBD or sex workers even in this thread. Basically all I’ve said is that the Johns have a right to ask for clean equipment and shouldn’t be forced to do anything they don’t want to do. According to the column, the customer (“SHEESH”) _wasn’t_ being forced to do anything he didn’t want to do. The dominatrix didn’t try to make him do anything. She brought up using a dildo in the future, and he agreed but questioned her hygiene methods. She responded not by trying to pressure him into going along, but by breaking off their relationship and telling him not to contact her again. That’s the OPPOSITE of forcing him to do something. She was obviously unwilling to proceed with her plan without his consent, and apparently didn’t care enough about keeping his business to negotiate about what would happen during their next session. She decided she didn’t want his money and sent him packing, as was her right. I have no interest in this particular kink and totally agree that shared sex toys should be clean, but at worst this dominatrix sounds like a “my way or the highway” type. If SHEESH was really concerned that she wasn’t doing her part to prevent the spread of STDs, he should have been happy that she didn’t want to see him again. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/107 "2008-11-22T18:43:32Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I have no hostility towards sex workers or prostitutes. I have hostility towards self-righteous assholes telling me what kind of distinctions and language I have to accept. I have no patience for that kind of insane political correctness. > > Anyone who’s going to fuck people up the ass with rubber dicks for money is going to have to accept the fact that other people are going to see it as prostitution. The protestations that it’s not a sex act are ridiculous. I agree. This is a sex act, regardless of whether there was penetration or orgasm or not. That fella was getting hisself some sexual gratification. And the lady provided it for a fee. And I have no problem with them engaging in this act. More power to them. But the fact that one party was **hired** to engage in it _is the very definition of prostitution!!_ I’m with **DtC** on this. You don’t like the word for it? Tough. The only way it would NOT be prostitution is if she did it for free. FTR, I believe that prostitution should be legal. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/108 "2008-11-22T18:46:16Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > According to the column, the customer (“SHEESH”) _wasn’t_ being forced to do anything he didn’t want to do. The dominatrix didn’t try to make him do anything. She brought up using a dildo in the future, and he agreed but questioned her hygiene methods. A perfectly valid thing to question, was it not? > [@](#): > > She responded not by trying to pressure him into going along, but by breaking off their relationship and telling him not to contact her again. Which makes her rude and unreasonable. No she didn’t physically try to force him to do anything, but the contention of many is that he was somehow an asshole for not just accepting whatever she wanted without question. As a matter of _ettiquette_, he had the right to raise his concerns without being shown the door. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/109 "2008-11-22T19:16:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > A perfectly valid thing to question, was it not? I’d say so, and Dan Savage didn’t seem to have a problem with it either – instead he said he suspected that SHEESH was being dishonest and manipulative in writing in with a complaint about a woman who he know read the column and who had said she wanted no further contact with him. > [@](#): > > _Which makes her rude and unreasonable._ A man looking for a polite and reasonable interaction with a woman is unlikely to find it during a paid session with a professional dominatrix. > [@](#): > > _No she didn’t physically try to force him to do anything, but the contention of many is that he was somehow an asshole for not just accepting whatever she wanted without question. As a matter of ettiquette, he had the right to raise his concerns without being shown the door._ Was this a commercial transaction or not? SHEESH had the right to expect that he’d get what he paid for that day, but he didn’t have any right to continued access to the dominatrix’s services. If she didn’t want to take his money anymore then she had every right to tell him not to come back. I’d agree with you that this wasn’t very _nice_, but it’s not a dominatrix’s job to be nice, and not being nice is a far cry from forcing someone to engage in dangerous behavior or ignoring the importance of sexual consent. The dominatrix in question was quite clearly unwilling to force SHEESH to do anything that he did not consent to. If she felt he was more trouble than he was worth as a client, she had no obligation to continue to see him. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/110 "2008-11-22T19:45:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yes it is. You’re saying that “negro” is a racial slur? Since when? > [@](#): > > The issue was that the John was getting attacked for asking reasonable questions. I was asking why she should get to determine what happens to HIM. Why is SHE making rules for what HE has to do? That makes no fucking sense at all. I don’t get why HE doesn’t have a right to say no. No, that’s **not** the issue. No one has attacked the guy for being concerned about STDs. The issue is _when he asked_. And it’s an issue because this particular subcommunity has its own, largely idiosyncratic, standards of decorum, which he violated. The guy was absolutely, 100% justified in being concerned for his own health. It is simply the manner in which he voiced his concerns, and his behavior subsequent to the dom breaking off the relationship, which is objectionable. If he’d followed the protocol of the community - which he joined of his own volition, and is free to leave at any time - his health would not have been at any greater risk, and the dom would not have refused to work with him anymore. And yes, the standards for this community are different than the ones you’re used to. That does not make them worse than yours, or dumber than yours, or less safe than yours. They’re simply _different._ > [@](#): > > Well, I still stand by that. Why should the customer be forced to do something he doesn’t want to do? Why am I the only one who thinks consent is important? It’s not an issue of consent. No one was forced to do anything without their consent. No one is arguing that anyone should be forced to do anything without their consent. > [@](#): > > Basically all I’ve said is that the Johns have a right to ask for clean equipment and shouldn’t be forced to do anything they don’t want to do. And no one - no one at all - has said anything to the contrary. > [@](#): > > Apparently that makes me a very “scary” person. Well, I hope I never become “non-scary” enough to think that forcing people into non-consensual sex acts is something I should embrace as “normal sexuality.” No, what makes you scary is the way you were explicitly saying that prostitutes _should_ be forced into non-consensual sex acts. But I’ll accept that that was an artifact of your inability to communicate clearly on the topic, and not indicative of your actual proclivities. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/111 "2008-11-22T19:53:04Z")
Okay, I’ve just spent far too much time reading all of this, and I think there’s a whole lot of misunderstanding going on (intentional or otherwise). What prompted me to post is that I’d like to ask **A Priori Tea** this question: In reading the original thread, why did you choose **Dio** and only **Dio** to pit, when **Fuzzy Dunlop** was saying the same things, and in an even more inflammatory manner? It makes me think that your issue isn’t whether a professional dom is a prostitute, but whether you just plain don’t like **Diogenes the Cynic**. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/112 "2008-11-22T20:00:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > You’re saying that “negro” is a racial slur? Since when? Long enough ago that it made it into the dictionary - [Main Entry: Ne·gro Pronunciation: \ˈnē-(ˌ)grō\ Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural Negroes Etymology: Spanish or Portuguese, from negro black, from Latin nigr-, niger Date: 1555 **sometimes offensive** : a member of a race of humankind native to Africa and classified according to physical features (as dark skin pigmentation)]([NEGRO Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/negro)) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/113 "2008-11-22T20:04:21Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No, what makes you scary is the way you were explicitly saying that prostitutes _should_ be forced into non-consensual sex acts. But I’ll accept that that was an artifact of your inability to communicate clearly on the topic, and not indicative of your actual proclivities. I have never EVER fucking said that. What I said was that the prostitute has no right to decide what the JOHN has to do. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/114 "2008-11-22T20:10:21Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I have never EVER fucking said that. What I said was that the prostitute has no right to decide what the JOHN has to do. Of course you did. It’s been quoted several time in this thread. Maybe you meant to say something else, but we can’t read your mind. We can only read what you’ve typed. If that’s not what you meant to say, learn to write better. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/115 "2008-11-22T20:14:03Z")
No I fucking didn’t say it. I said just the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/116 "2008-11-22T20:22:43Z")
I guess I did say in one of my first posts that “a hooker’s supposed to do as she’s told,” so I can see how that might seem like I was saying she has to submit to whatever the customer wants. I didn’t mean it that way. It was a petulant initial response, but really, I just meant that she wasn’t supposed to be the one deciding what customer has to go along with. It made no sense to me that she should be the one dictating what he has to accept sexually. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/117 "2008-11-22T20:36:16Z")
**InvisibleWombat** , just so you won’t think she’s ignoring you: > [@A\_Priori\_Tea](#): > > I’ll be out of town till Sunday evening, so I’ll look forward to rejoining you then. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/118 "2008-11-22T21:00:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Anyone who’s going to fuck people up the ass with rubber dicks for money… Jesus H. Christ on a Sidecar With A Popsicle In His Butt, **Diogenes** , I’m not BDSM and even I figured out that this isn’t what happened at all. Fuck, you can be so willfully ignorant sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/119 "2008-11-22T21:06:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I thought the problem was that the John wanted a safety standard that the dominatrix didn’t. He asked her to wash it in bleach, she got pissy about it for some reason or other. > > God knows there’s no fathoming the ins and outs of a relationship like that, but come on. > > Sure, you can tie me up and pee on me and whip me and all that is just good clean fun. But if I ask you to wash the damn thing of other peoples’ ass juice before you have me stuff it up my bung hole - oh noes, **that’s** out of the question. > > :rolleyes: > > You people draw all these weird distinctions and then get upset when even the people involved can’t keep it straight. Hell has frozen over because I agree with all of this, completely. What I am not understanding in this very long (and tedious-who knew “kinky” sex could be so dull?) thread (I’m bored this cold Saturday afternoon) is this odd distinction, a splitting hairs of sorts. Sex is many things to many people, but at a minimum it’s about pleasure, power, trust and control. Even for Mike and Carol Brady, sex is about all of those. So, I don’t quite get this whole, “you can’t call it prostitution! Don’t call us that; it hurts our feelings! It’s not ABOUT sex!” when there is clearly an element of sexual gratification running throughout the dynamic. It’s prostitution when a wife gives her husband a blowjob in the back of a taxicab in NYC because he promised her a tennis bracelet if she dared to.\* We may not formally call it that, but in essence, that is money/goods for sex. Plain and simple. I have no contact with the BDSM community, but I cannot believe that someone wanting to be spanked or whipped or humiliated is not getting some type of (however covert) sexual pleasure out of it. If this were not the case, I think we’d see BSDM parlors much like massage parlors or spas etc–IOW, mainstream stuff. We don’t. Touch is an extremely loaded topic in our culture– **WhyNot** spoke of her issues in her profession; nursing has many of the same issues. You cannot easily separate out the complexities, especially in a marginal (or marginalized) community such as BDSM. Now, for all I know, we are on the verge of accepting BDSM into the mainstream and this caviling over word choice is a sign of that. As groups gain in acceptance and political power (the mind somewhat boggles here), vocabulary and descriptors become hot button issues. Given that we can’t even seem to grant homosexuals an equal place, I’d say the BDSM community will have to practice patience. And finally, this woman in the article who was put out because a customer questioned the cleanliness of the equipment was out of line and not a good businesswoman. (unless, of course, the purchased “game” was for her to be dismissive of concerns and make herself appear to not care about STDs etc–which brings up another topic entirely: how many games within games are played? Never mind, I’m not all that interested). IMO, **Dio** may not have expressed himself as best he could, but his position is clear. I don’t see any hostility toward sex workers or women in general from him. I read frustration in his posts. And I read some righteous indignation from some surprising sources. The BDSM folk must know that Americans in general have deeply conflicted and contradictory views and feelings on sex. We are both Puritanical and raunchy as hell about it on an almost constant basis. Given that, what exactly did you all expect? A thread in IMHO is going to garner opposing opinions and even negative ones. Pope is Catholic etc. \*this story was told to me at a Christmas party a few years ago by a woman who was very proud of her new tennis bracelet. My friend and I listened in silence and when the woman had moved on to share her good fortune with others, we looked at one another and my friend said, “where I come from, that’s called being a whore.” And I agree. But that’s another thread… ---
**Author:** ![yams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/848f3c/32.png) [@yams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yams)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/120 "2008-11-22T21:10:17Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I have never EVER fucking said that. What I said was that the prostitute has no right to decide what the JOHN has to do. Maybe think about it like this: you hire a personal trainer to get you in shape. You purposefully hire one of those boot-camp-style personal trainers, because you know that, for you, the only way you will get off your ass and away from the fridge is if you have some scary guy yelling at you and making you do push-ups and tearing the box of Velveeta cheese from your fingers and hurling it across the room. You specifically hire this guy to yell and scream and make you do things you don’t want to do - it’s the only way you’ll get into shape. So what if you start whining and complaining, saying you are tired of push-ups? Yeah, of course you don’t HAVE to do what the guy says, but you are PAYING HIM to yell at you and tell you what to do. He is supposed to be a hard ass, and when you complain you are tired of push-ups, he makes you do more for having the audacity to complain. If all of a sudden you decide you don’t want to listen to him, what is the point of hiring him as a personal trainer? If you hire the personal trainer to tell you what to do, and then you whine and complain when they tell you to do something, and you don’t do it, then what is the point of hiring them in the first place? Maybe it’s kind of the same thing with the dominatrix? You are PAYING HER to tell you what to do, THAT is what gives her the right to tell you what to do. Apologies if this doesn’t make sense, contributes nothing to the thread, has been posted before, treads on the toes of the knowledgeable, etc etc. Most of my brain is still studying organic chemistry. love yams!! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910.md?page=7)