# Hi, Dio! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 21, 2008, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910 "2008-11-21T21:18:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/121 "2008-11-22T21:11:47Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > Jesus H. Christ on a Sidecar With A Popsicle In His Butt, **Diogenes** , I’m not BDSM and even I figured out that this isn’t what happened at all. > > Fuck, you can be so willfully ignorant sometimes. Yeah, it IS what was happening. Read the Savage column. What else is “dildo training” supposed to mean? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/122 "2008-11-22T21:18:00Z")
> [@yams](#): > > Maybe think about it like this: you hire a personal trainer to get you in shape. You purposefully hire one of those boot-camp-style personal trainers, because you know that, for you, the only way you will get off your ass and away from the fridge is if you have some scary guy yelling at you and making you do push-ups and tearing the box of Velveeta cheese from your fingers and hurling it across the room. You specifically hire this guy to yell and scream and make you do things you don’t want to do - it’s the only way you’ll get into shape. > > So what if you start whining and complaining, saying you are tired of push-ups? Yeah, of course you don’t HAVE to do what the guy says, but you are PAYING HIM to yell at you and tell you what to do. He is supposed to be a hard ass, and when you complain you are tired of push-ups, he makes you do more for having the audacity to complain. If all of a sudden you decide you don’t want to listen to him, what is the point of hiring him as a personal trainer? > If you hire the personal trainer to tell you what to do, and then you whine and complain when they tell you to do something, and you don’t do it, then what is the point of hiring them in the first place? > > Maybe it’s kind of the same thing with the dominatrix? You are PAYING HER to tell you what to do, THAT is what gives her the right to tell you what to do. > > Apologies if this doesn’t make sense, contributes nothing to the thread, has been posted before, treads on the toes of the knowledgeable, etc etc. Most of my brain is still studying organic chemistry. > love > yams!! I get what you’re saying, but the customer can still tell a personal trainer to give it a rest and/or ask questions about the safety of equipment once in a while. If the trainer’s getting paid the same, I don’t see why he would care if a customer said, “why don’t we just pretend today. Just take it easy, I’m going to go out and have a smoke.” The trainer would basically be getting paid for doing nothing, but so what? If somebody wants to pay him for doing nothing, why should he, the trainer, have a problem with that? It might be a waste of the customer’s money, but that’s not the trainer’s probem. Even that’s taking it a little further than Savage column scenario, though, all the dude asked for was safe equipment. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/123 "2008-11-22T21:25:05Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > See, where you’re wrong here is, if someone asks you not to use a term to describe them, and you insist on using that term anyway, you’re not being polite. Accuracy and acceptance don’t enter into it. If you know a guy named Robert, and you keep calling him Bobby even though you know he doesn’t like that name, and has politely asked you not to use it when referring to him, you’re just being a dick. If professional doms don’t like being called prostitutes, and you insist on referring to them as such, you may be right, and you may have the majority opinion behind you, but you’re still being a dick. That works with names and other arbitrary labels, but if someone is engaged in an activity commonly called X, and asks that it not be called X, people won’t and shouldn’t take them seriously. If Johnny Depp decides he doesn’t wasn’t to be called an actor people would say “But that’s what you do Mr. Depp, you act. You are an actor.” And people would be right to say that. Or, if I said I wanted people to call me “Emporer-Pope Larry Borgia” most people would rightly tell me to get over myself. People should make reasonable accomodations, like calling me Lawrence instead of Larry if that’s what I want, but they shouldn’t be asked to deny reality. Note that this is just a general comment. I have no opinion on whether Dominatrixes are Prostitutes or not. I guess it depends on what counts as sex, which isn’t clear. If a lap dance isn’t prostitution I suppose what a Dom does might not be. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/124 "2008-11-22T21:30:47Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yeah, it IS what was happening. Read the Savage column. What else is “dildo training” supposed to mean? Why don’t you read the threads again? It’s been explained multiple times to you what it really is. _The client does it to himself._ ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/125 "2008-11-22T21:37:02Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > Why don’t you read the threads again? It’s been explained multiple times to you what it really is. _The client does it to himself._ A distinction without a difference, as far as I’m concerned. ---
**Author:** ![yams](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/848f3c/32.png) [@yams](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yams)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/126 "2008-11-22T21:37:58Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I get what you’re saying, but the customer can still tell a personal trainer to give it a rest and/or ask questions about the safety of equipment once in a while. If the trainer’s getting paid the same, I don’t see why he would care if a customer said, “why don’t we just pretend today. Just take it easy, I’m going to go out and have a smoke.” The trainer would basically be getting paid for doing nothing, but so what? If somebody wants to pay him for doing nothing, why should he, the trainer, have a problem with that? It might be a waste of the customer’s money, but that’s not the trainer’s probem. > > Even that’s taking it a little further than Savage column scenario, though, all the dude asked for was safe equipment. But the whole point of the personal trainer is that they make you work hard on days when you don’t feel like it. And yeah, they would be getting paid the same either way, but what fun is it to work with someone who agrees to the rules and then tries to change them? And yeah, I think it is totally fine to make sure something has been properly cleaned before it is shoved up your butt. I was just thinking of analogies [ha, ha - ANALogies] where the person being hired is the one calling the shots. love yams!! ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/127 "2008-11-22T21:42:05Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > **InvisibleWombat** , just so you won’t think she’s ignoring you Thank you. I’m not in any rush, though. I have a funny feeling this thread will keep going all weekend 😉 > [@eleanorigby](#): > > It’s prostitution when a wife gives her husband a blowjob in the back of a taxicab in NYC because he promised her a tennis bracelet if she dared to.\* I agree with everything in your post except this. Maybe. Sometimes. There’s a very fuzzy and tenuous line when you’re talking about sex and spouses (or spouse equivalents). When is it sexual favors for money, and when is it fun and games? I wanted my wife to stay in bed a while longer the other morning and she said she had a pile of laundry she had to get done. I told her if she lingered with me a while, I’d do the laundry. Was that prostitution? It was an exchange of sex for services. Is it really completely different from the tennis bracelet? ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/128 "2008-11-22T21:45:10Z")
Dio, I’m going to chime in with another probably completely absurd and inapplicable analogy. I’m a teacher, and while I’m instructing the class, I don’t think I’d appreciate a student interrupting the lesson, demanding to see my certification. You’d think that they’d trust the district and the school to have hired a competent and qualified person, but if they don’t, then the time to bring that up is privately, when I can respond and address their concerns To do otherwise shows disrespect for me as a professional and is rudely disruptive. The same question, asked at the appropriate time and place, might still seem distrustful but would be accommodated rather easily. The dom most likely would have been fine with a discussion of hygiene after their session but before the next session when the dildo was involved. If she did not, then I would agree with you that she was wrong and taking her role to an unsafe extreme. As it was, the sub in this case was not showing respect for the time and place with his request, and she was right to terminate their relationship if he insisted on showing that disrespect. JMO. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/129 "2008-11-22T21:50:10Z")
> [@Rubystreak](#): > > Dio, I’m going to chime in with another probably completely absurd and inapplicable analogy. Well put, because based on these threads, I don’t think that **Dio** believes in any other kind. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/130 "2008-11-22T21:59:25Z")
I think that only the customer has the right to decide what “the proper time and place” is. It’s his fantasy. He has the right to say “holodeck, pause program” any time he wants. How is that any skin off the sex worker’s nose? ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/131 "2008-11-22T22:02:59Z")
More thoughts. This beats cleaning the bathrooms. 1. Upon reflection, I get that the guy should have waited until after the scene or session to bring up his concerns. However, the dom lost a great opportunity to reinforce her, um, domination of him by not incorporating his anxieties into said scene(and if that’s just not done, I really don’t understand the “pro” approach to this issue. See below). IOW, she didn’t really think on her feet. She took her toys and went home. Oh, well. Neither of them acted well or “politely”. 2. Given 23+ years as a nurse, I have to chuckle at **A Priori Tea’s** vehemence re the cleanliness standards of pros. No doubt she is ever vigilant and perfect in her equipment care and keeping. However, multi-use items can be or just plain are vehicles of infection, and not just STDs. Human nature being human nature, spots are missed, dildoes, straps, whathaveyous are not scrubbed as well as they might be every time, every day etc. This is one reason we have (at least in health care) industry standards and “visits” by examiners and accreditations. Say what you like, but it is not possible that pros adhere to the same standards of hygiene across the board. The John or sub is right to be concerned and is entitled to have his concerns addressed. Frankly, I’d want a look at a policy and procedure manual that stipulates when and how often X is cleaned, what type of barriers are used and when equipment is replaced etc and that’s for starters. Anyone who deals with the public and who takes _as a personal slight_ a request or demand by said public to be shown the hygiene standards used needs to rethink their practice. I am asked by pts to re-wash my hands on an almost daily basis. This is not a reflection on me or my nursing–it is a patient asking to be reassured that s/he can TRUST me to ensure (as best I can) that s/he will receive the best care possible. There are good handwashing technique inservices almost every year at my hospital; we tell pts daily why we use gloves and other equipment involved in treatment of their bodies and problems. I do not understand this attitude of “I know I do this, so that should be good enough for everyone.” Does this POV come with the territory? Dom in scenes so dom all the time? WTH? and people PAY for this? I don’t question their sexual proclivities; I question their intelligence. I’m paying you and yet I’m not allowed to question your sanitation? Oh, hell no. Since this whole dom/sub thing is NOT about sex (or so we’re told) but is about trust and power and control–I would think that such concerns would be treated with dignity, courtesy and professionalism. Instead, I read (in the IMHO thread) a whole lot of “they should just know we clean our stuff”. Well, no. People enter into a murky world of under the table, on the fringe type worlds to get what they need (I’m sure there are plenty of pert, suburban housewives being doms somewhere. I get that not all of it is shades of “Blue Velvet”)–why would they take what the dom or hooker says on faith? Why would any John (or Jane)? Because the urge for pleasure is strong and no one really believes that they’ll die/get sick, just as others can assume that they do all they can to prevent infection or transmission of disease. Both parties are wrong in their denial and lack of desire to think of negative consequences. As an aside, **APT-** -you say that a dom who doesn’t practice good sanitation practices won’t stay in business long. But really, how would the subs know one way or another? Do subs get together and chat about their STDS or staph infections? Do subs even know one another? If a dildo looks dry and clean to the eye (no visible stains or streaks etc), most people assume it is clean. I doubt that the clientele is focused on hygiene when they arrive. The amount of trust that is put on you is huge. I can understand (and applaud) you not wanting to squander it, but to raise concerns is not the same as criticism of your service. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/132 "2008-11-22T22:03:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I think that only the customer has the right to decide what “the proper time and place” is. It’s his fantasy. He has the right to say “holodeck, pause program” any time he wants. How is that any skin off the sex worker’s nose? Okay, I’ll try once again … because _giving up the freedom (control, power, choose your term) to do that_ is _what he is paying for in the first place_. He is there to be controlled. The dominatrix is simply giving him what he is paying for. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/133 "2008-11-22T22:07:03Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I think that only the customer has the right to decide what “the proper time and place” is. It’s his fantasy. He has the right to say “holodeck, pause program” any time he wants. How is that any skin off the sex worker’s nose? I have to say that your head is where mine is at. On the other hand, I’m willing to concede that there isn’t much about this that I can relate to, so who am I to say the Dom was wrong? If it’s part of the etiquette of the situation not to break the scene, and it wasn’t something that was at issue right then, then he probably shouldn’t have done it. I do think that he has every right to question her at any _other_ time about her hygiene practices and not have her hold it against him. Regarding the prostitution label…if a person is exchanging sexual favors for money, it’s prostitution. I don’t think that specializing in a particular type of sexual favor makes you exempt from that. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/134 "2008-11-22T22:10:41Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > Thank you. I’m not in any rush, though. I have a funny feeling this thread will keep going all weekend 😉 > > I agree with everything in your post except this. Maybe. Sometimes. > > There’s a very fuzzy and tenuous line when you’re talking about sex and spouses (or spouse equivalents). When is it sexual favors for money, and when is it fun and games? I wanted my wife to stay in bed a while longer the other morning and she said she had a pile of laundry she had to get done. I told her if she lingered with me a while, I’d do the laundry. Was that prostitution? It was an exchange of sex for services. Is it really completely different from the tennis bracelet? \ That’s up to the parties involved. It’s prostitution to me and I wouldn’t do it. IMO, if it feels like a business transaction, it’s no longer sex/intimacy. YMMV. But I see I left out a few details that might help clarify the story. She’s the second (much younger) wife. He is known for being basically a controlling, conscienceless jerk. They had seen the bracelet in the window of Tiffany’s earlier in the day. She asked for it; he said no. In the cab, she asked again–he told her to blow him and they’d turn around and get it. Sorry, in my book, that’s prostitution. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/135 "2008-11-22T22:18:48Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Okay, I’ll try once again … > > because _giving up the freedom (control, power, choose your term) to do that_ is _what he is paying for in the first place_. He is there to be controlled. The dominatrix is simply giving him what he is paying for. Obviously, in this case, she didn’t. When I go in for a massage - which I do with some regularity - and it seems like a similar profession in many respects - the masseuse takes time before I even get on the table to understand what my comfort area is - do I want hard pressure or soft. I happen to like my massages pretty darn firm - but that varies from massusse to masseuse and from client to client. I also love having my feet done - something I understand not all clients are comfortable with. Maybe this guy isn’t really cut out to be a sub. Or maybe he is with a different dom. But this business relationship seems to be a failure - and he has every right to complain. And I think its funny that people are hung up on the legal definition of prostitute, but defend her behavior by using the word contract. If she isn’t a prostitute, they didn’t have a contract. If they had a contract, then people are going to have to live with the fact a lot of people would consider her a prostitute. Also, if her behavior is standard in the dom/sub world, than his complaints have no weight and won’t impact her business. She can giggle with her friends about how clueless this guy is. If it isn’t, than he has a legitimate complaint. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/136 "2008-11-22T22:27:11Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > A distinction without a difference, as far as I’m concerned. Idiot. ---
**Author:** ![Rubystreak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Rubystreak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rubystreak)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/137 "2008-11-22T23:17:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I think that only the customer has the right to decide what “the proper time and place” is. It’s his fantasy. He has the right to say “holodeck, pause program” any time he wants. How is that any skin off the sex worker’s nose? It’s not just a fantasy, though. It’s not the holodeck. Two human beings are involved in a predetermined transaction. The terms were laid out ahead of time and mutually consented to. It’s disrespectful to try to change that or rudely question that in the middle of the transaction, many magnitudes moreso when the very premise of the transaction is that the customer is subservient to the professional he’s paying. You have to admit that he has reneged on their agreement, and has to expect that she would react negatively to that. Anyone would, as I would in my example about the teacher. Now, if his health were actually at risk, that would trump their agreement, but it wasn’t. It sounds like he was trying to hijack the situation and have power over her. Even outside a dom/sub situation, like in my teaching example, sometimes people rebel against the respect they’re supposed to be giving an authority figure. Consequently, the dom opted out because that’s not what she agreed to. She is entitled to do that. This is coming from someone who knows nothing about BDSM, but I’m trying to put myself into the situation and imagine how I’d feel in a comparable situation. Dio, maybe you should try to think of it in those terms, taking the sex worker aspect out and just think about power dynamics and respect in a professional situation. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [November 22, 2008, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/138 "2008-11-22T23:29:08Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I think that only the customer has the right to decide what “the proper time and place” is. It’s his fantasy. He has the right to say “holodeck, pause program” any time he wants. How is that any skin off the sex worker’s nose? While you’re absolutely right about the use of the word “prostitute,” and I can’t really believe the abuse you’re getting (if you think prostitute is in any way comparable to nigger, or even negro, then you’re the one with [scare quotes] issues [/scare quotes] about sex workers), I think you’re missing the point on this issue. Using the restaurant analogy, this is not like asking for a clean fork. It’s like asking the waiter to bring out a buspan and a kettle of boiling water and sterilize the fork in front of you. The restaurant will or will not honor your request, but it’s not rude either way. There’s nothing wrong with asking someone to take their custom elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/139 "2008-11-23T00:19:48Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Even that’s taking it a little further than Savage column scenario, though, all the dude asked for was safe equipment. Actually, he didn’t merely ask that the equipment be clean, he asked that the dominatrix personally clean it in front of him. For whatever reason the dominatrix was unwilling to do this and considered his request a deal breaker. As Savage said, the fact that the dominatrix showed SHEESH the door indicates that either she’s unwilling to stop the game for a moment to discuss her client’s valid health concerns, OR that this guy had a history of being obnoxious and she decided she’d finally had enough. If the former, SHEESH shouldn’t be complaining. He should be thanking his lucky stars that the dominatrix didn’t want to see him again. If she was genuinely unconcerned with his safety, she could have done him serious harm. But as Savage pointed out, there were signs that this guy was a jerk and that his description of the situation may not have been totally accurate. He may have had a history of trying to get the dominatrix to spend more time with him for free, or he may just have been getting on her nerves. She may also have been thinking that she didn’t go into the dominatrixing business expecting to have to put up with her clients standing over her to supervise her cleaning. I’d say the dominatrix was obligated to provide clean equipment, but not obligated to allow her client to dictate where and when the cleaning would take place. If SHEESH wasn’t happy with how this dominatrix handled her cleaning, then he should be happy to take his business elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/140 "2008-11-23T00:24:54Z")
I think the customer has every right to be shown something other than a prostitute’s word that her dildoes are clean. I also think she had no justification at all for saying he couldn’t bring his own. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910.md?page=8)