# Hi, Dio! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 21, 2008, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910 "2008-11-21T21:18:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/141 "2008-11-23T00:26:34Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I think the customer has every right to be shown something other than a prostitute’s word that her dildoes are clean. I also think she had no justification at all for saying he couldn’t bring his own. Unless she said it because she was still trying to stay inside the fantasy at that moment, and didn’t actually mean it. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/142 "2008-11-23T00:34:01Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I think the customer has every right to be shown something other than a prostitute’s word that her dildoes are clean. Everybody agrees with you on this, from what I can tell. But there’s a time and a place for everything. For instance, you do NOT ask the pilot to land the plane so you can make sure your luggage is on board. You do NOT ask the waiter to slaughter the cow at your table so you can see that it’s kosher. You do NOT ask your husband in the middle of sex to check to see if the front door is locked. These are indeed valid concerns, but you address them at the proper time and place. Let me also add, “You do NOT pay a person to tell you **NO** and then ask questions where you want the answer to be **yes.** ” This guy appears to have chosen a piss-poor time and place. It cost him his relationship with a service vendor. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/143 "2008-11-23T00:39:17Z")
Those are analogies, **Fish**. **Dio** doesn’t do analogies. And since he also doesn’t understand the dynamic of the actual situation being discussed, he’s trapped in his fortress of being right because none of us can rescue him with our useless, irrelevant analogies _or_ our actual information. I think “fighting ignorance” is takin’ it on the chin here, folks. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/144 "2008-11-23T00:42:41Z")
I understand the analogies. I just don’t buy them because I think the fundamental premise that there is any “wrong time” to raise concerns in the context of a trivial sex game is a false one. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/145 "2008-11-23T00:42:44Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I think the customer has every right to be shown something other than a prostitute’s word that her dildoes are clean. I also think she had no justification at all for saying he couldn’t bring his own. Why does he have the right to make her do something she apparently didn’t want to do? If she doesn’t feel like cleaning her dildoes in front of him then he did not have any legal or moral right to insist that she do so. What he did have was the right to say that if she didn’t comply with his request then he would take his business elsewhere. As things happened, the dominatrix forced his hand. He didn’t like her business practices, so she refused to serve him again. She was totally within her rights in doing so. No one is _entitled_ to the services of a dominatrix, it’s not like she’s an ER doctor or something. SHEESH is perfectly free to get his jollies elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/146 "2008-11-23T00:45:23Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > Why does he have the right to make her do something she apparently didn’t want to do? If she doesn’t feel like cleaning her dildoes in front of him then he did not have any legal or moral right to insist that she do so. What he did have was the right to say that if she didn’t comply with his request then he would take his business elsewhere. As things happened, the dominatrix forced his hand. He didn’t like her business practices, so she refused to serve him again. She was totally within her rights in doing so. No one is _entitled_ to the services of a dominatrix, it’s not like she’s an ER doctor or something. SHEESH is perfectly free to get his jollies elsewhere. He has a basic right to be assured of his personal safety. If she doesn’t want to give her customers those assurances, then she shouldn’t be in business. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/147 "2008-11-23T00:49:52Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > He has a basic right to be assured of his personal safety. If she doesn’t want to give her customers those assurances, then she shouldn’t be in business. Well then it’s a good thing she refused his business, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/148 "2008-11-23T00:54:19Z")
Could be. Not the most professional, though. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/149 "2008-11-23T01:02:56Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Could be. Not the most professional, though. So what? It is, literally, her business. Either SHEESH was a rare case, or she’ll soon have no customers because she’s turned all of them away. But she doesn’t have to do whatever some guy tells her to do just because she’s a sex trade worker. If for some reason she draws the line at washing dildos in front of customers then that is her choice, and SHEESH will just have to deal with finding a more “professional” dominatrix. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/150 "2008-11-23T01:08:31Z")
Yeah, you could lose your dominatrix license by doing what people tell you. He should complain to the local board of health. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/151 "2008-11-23T01:15:22Z")
Here’s another in support of **Dio**. This is just ridiculous. It’s just plain delusion not to call these people prostitutes, and that’s without passing any judgement on prostitutes and their trade. **A Priori Tea** , you were a prostitute, so what? If you have no issues with BDSM what do you have against prostitution? Lastly, I think you people who need to beat/get beaten for sexual gratification are sick and should get some psychological therapy instead of coming here and claiming people are narrow-minded. ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/152 "2008-11-23T01:27:23Z")
> [@InvisibleWombat](#): > > Okay, I’ve just spent far too much time reading all of this, and I think there’s a whole lot of misunderstanding going on (intentional or otherwise). What prompted me to post is that I’d like to ask **A Priori Tea** this question: > > In reading the original thread, why did you choose **Dio** and only **Dio** to pit, when **Fuzzy Dunlop** was saying the same things, and in an even more inflammatory manner? It makes me think that your issue isn’t whether a professional dom is a prostitute, but whether you just plain don’t like **Diogenes the Cynic**. I obviously don’t speak for **A Priori Tea** , but IMO **Fuzzy Dunlop** comes across as far more coherent and far less creepy than **Dio**. For example, here’s all of **Fuzzy Dunlop** ’s posts (as of a few minutes ago) munged together; I’ll post **Dio** ’s contributions in a followup post. > [@Fuzzy Dunlop](#): > > Prostitutes with dildos is vastly far outside my realm of experience but this sounds utterly insane to me. He should have waited until after the session? Is there a safe word that lets you tap out of the hepatitis the whore’s unsterilized shared dildo gives you? > > Ok, I read it again and I agree there’s nothing to suggest the dildo was going to be introduced imminently, which I was assuming. And, you know, I’m not into BDSM so I guess I don’t get it - but doesn’t her willingness to put him in a dangerous situation per se indicate that she doesn’t deserve his trust? > > I think it’s an impossible situation for me to relate to, not because it’s kinky, but because she’s a prostitute. You are right about the dildo, that’s exactly what I’m assuming. If I were ever to engage a prostitute, whether it was for BDSM activities or totally vanilla sex, I would assume that if something isn’t sanitized in front of me it is not sterile. But I would never be in that situation, so again I guess I just can’t relate. If the woman weren’t a prostitute - even if they weren’t monogamous - it would be such a different situation in my mind that I’d have to start over from scratch. > > I’ve never known a definition of prostitute that didn’t include sexual activity with a person for money. > > Wouldn’t a better analogy be if you ordered a steak, and it came out so rare that you have a legitimate concern about the hygiene and safety of eating it? > > I’m not ignoring you I am disagreeing with you. Even if you pay a prostitute to take complete control of a situation for purposes of your sexual gratification that control should not extend to putting your health at risk. Ideally, at no point in the sexual encounter should the john’s health be at risk, but at any point if he feels threatened his fears should not be ignored. It was wrong of the prostitute to ignore his legitimate fears. > > Engaging in prostitution is a high risk activity per se. Sharing a dildo with a prostitute and any number of other clients is a high risk activity per se. Any precautions one seeks to limit the riskiness of engaging in sexual activity with a prostitute are reasonable. > > Why is everyone making tortured analogies to meat and karate class? What’s wrong with reality? A john paying a prostitute for sexual activity being worried about engaging in something that could potentially infect him with an STD. It’s not the same as asking a karate teacher what’s up or telling a waiter you want chicken. It’s not a remotely apt analogy. > > It’s a little more than just a client’s individual tastes and preferences, don’ t you think? Would you let a whore shove something up your ass if you knew she did the same to a bunch of other men who engage in sex with prostitutes? “Dangerous” might be a bit hyperbolic but I’d say as sexual activities go it’s about as dangerous as it gets when it comes to transmission of diseases. > > If I engaged in prostitution I wouldn’t define it as prostitution either. If prostitution is pejorative isn’t it due to the act itself, and not an accurate description of the act? The guy was paying a woman to engage in sexual activity for money. Is there a more neutral word for that than prostitution? > > Are you really saying that inserting a dildo into someone’s ass isn’t a sexual activity? The control and humiliation aren’t sexual in nature? > > I don’t agree that a stripper’s work is clearly not prostitution. A stripper - most strippers - undoubtedly do not engage in prostitution. I’m also sure it’s common for some strippers to go from dancing around naked to engaging in sex acts for money - so sometimes they are prostituting themselves. > > In the case of the prostitute in Savage’s column, she’s clearly engaging in sexual acts with the guy for cash. That’s the only definition of prostitute I know. I reject out of hand the notion that there’s some secret definition of prostitute that only applies if there’s actual sex, but in this case you can’t even say there’s no penetration, since there would have been if he didn’t offend her. > > When this prostitute has sex with men for money she only does it in the context of BDSM and they don’t get to see her vagina. So she’s a niche whore. So what? > > What is with all the bad analogies in this thread? Calling all people who engage in sex acts for money prostitutes is about as obnoxious as calling all people who are employed to extinguish fire firefighters. ---
**Author:** ![Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d9b06d/32.png) [@Boozahol\_Squid\_P.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boozahol_Squid_P.I)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/153 "2008-11-23T01:28:57Z")
> [@Idle\_Thoughts](#): > > I thought it would be about **Diomedes** (who changed his name to Booze Squid something a bit back but some people still refer to him as **Dio** (sometimes)) Leave me out of this, Idle. Although I’m totally with DtC on this one. ‘Prostitute’ is a PC enough word for a whore, no matter their specialty. And if you bring up shoving something in someone’s ass, you should be prepared for a safety/health conversation, no matter your preconditioned arrangements on who’s making the decisions. It’s her right to back out of the arrangement, but exercising that right because the guy was concerned about his health definitely makes her a douche. ---
**Author:** ![Hunter\_Hawk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/50afbb/32.png) [@Hunter\_Hawk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hunter_Hawk)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/154 "2008-11-23T01:29:19Z")
And here are **Dio** ’s contributions. I dunno about you, but I ended up getting pretty weirded out. YMMV, of course. > [@Dio](#): > > I don’t think there’s aything wrong with insisting on a clean dildo, and I don’t see any reason to give a shit what some hooker thinks about it. I think Savage is out of line on this one. Role playing needs to take a back seat to basic hygene and hookers are supposed to do what they’re told. The customer is always right. If the hooker’s not going to do as she’s told, then what the hell is she getting paid for? > > Oh, she is too. There’s nothing wrong with it, but it is what it is. She gets paid to make guys come. That’s a prostitute. > > You would use physical violence on a paying customer for asking you a perfectly legitimate question? > > How the hell was in the wrong? What’s wrong with asking a prostitute to be hygenic? What’s wrong with wanting to able to confirm that the equiment is clean? It’s like throwing somebody out of a subway because they ask an employee to wear goves while he’s making sandwich. > > I think she was extremely unprofessional and probably needs to find another line of work. > > Six of one, half dozen of the other, as far as I’m concerned. The guy still comes at the end. That’s sex. > > I don’t buy this analogy at all. It’s only like asking for a clean fork. Even so, the restaurant wouldn’t throw the customer out, they’d bring him the chicken. The customer is under no obligation to follow any rules, only the prostitute is. The John can play along or ignore the rules as he pleases. It’s his session, not hers. He’s the one that’s paying. > > It remains to be explained how this customer was being a jerk. All he asked for was clean equipment. That’s a perfectly reasonable request. In my opinion, it’s a request that these kind sof quasi-legal prostitutes should be required by law to comply with. I don’t think it’s asking too much to not want to be raped up the ass with a filthy, disease-ridden dildo. > > The question is what reassurance does he have that the equipment is clean. > > “Contract?” What contract? What agreement? He’s paying somebody to get his rocks off, not give him a bunch of grief. He has no obligation to play along with the kink any more than he feels like it. I don’t get where the sex worker has any say at all in the matter. She’s serving a customer for money. Why does what she wants enter into it at all? > > Why should he take her word for anything? She’s taking his money, I see no reason he shouldn’t be entitled to know that the equipment is clean or to bring his own. > > What is this “contract” stuff? He gives her 20 bucks, she stands on his balls or whatever. Calling it a “contract” is putting a rather fancy dress on it, IMO. > > He says he signed a “contract” with her, but he put the word “contract” in scare quotes, indicating that it wasn’t anything with genuine legal significance, just part of the role playing. It doesn’t sound like anything he was under any legal obligation to honor, it doesn’t sound like he was “topping from the bottom” anyway. Just asking for clean equipment. It sounds like this particular sex worker is an insecure control freak who can’t handle it if a customer asserts the slightest authority. She should find another job. > > Of course, why anybody wants to actually PAY to take abuse from psycho control freaks is something I have absolutely no ability to relate to in the first place, so I know I’m not getting the culture here at all. > > Says who? I say the appropriate time is whenever the hell the customer says it is. Who the hell is the prostitute to say when it’s appropriate for a paying customer to ask questions or act any way he wants? > > Shouldn’t the Johns be entitled to clean equipment as a matter of course? Does a dentist charge extra for sterilizing the equipment? > > Also, what’s wrong with letting him bring his own dildo? That doesn’t take any extra time at all. > > I think it’s laughable to compare it to a class. There are no other students. There’s nothing “dangerous” going on. It’s just a sex game. He’s paying for the time, and the time is his to do with as he sees fit. She’s there to follow his agenda, he’s not there to follow hers. > > What’s wrong with topping from the bottom anyway? Who’s paying who here? > > Well I agree, but the contention was made that it was somehow “dangerous” to stop a session and ask for a clean dildo. > > What “dangerous” things are going on in the middle of this session which make it somehow hazardous to stop and ask for a clean dildo? > > So when she introduces a new idea for next week, why is it inappropriate for him to ask then and there if he can either bring his own equipment or see proof that hers is clean? She brought this idea up, not him. Why is he not allowed to ask about the parameters for it? > > I still don’t get why the fuck he has to follow any “instructions.” Since when do paying customers have to follow instructions? Fuck her instructions. > > Just because they ask for them doesn’t mean they have to follow them, or can’t interrupt them. > > I never said she couldn’t stop services. I said she was rude. > > Whatever their retarded pre-agreement was, it was all for his benefit not hers. He can break it whenever he wants.It doesn’t sound like he really even broke the agreement anyway. He just wanted to clarify the terms of something new she was trying to introduce. > > And for the last time, I never suggested that he should be able to “do whatever he wants,” only that he doesn’t have to do what he DOESN’T want. > > All he did was ask for clean equipment. He has a right to be selective anyway. It’s like going to restaurant and then being told you have to eat everything on your plate because, hey, you ordered it. He can accept or refuse exactly as much as he feels like. > > But the “rules” are just fake rules being roled played for his gratification. He should be able to pick and choose what he wants to play along with. I think it’s ridiculous to say the made up “rules” are “important.” No they aren’t. They’re just make believe. > > Cite for me ever saying any of this? > > What’s wrong with arguing wth a dom in the middle of the scene? How does that hurt the dom? > > “Terms of service?” The terms of service are that her pays her to boss him around for his sexual gratification. He gets his rocks off, she gets paid. It’s all just a game. It makes no sense to say he has to follow whatever she says if it doesn’t get him off. He’s not there for her gratification, she’s there for his (which, preemptively, is not to say that she has to do whatever he wants, but that her own kinks are for her own time). ---
**Author:** ![Flymaster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c4cdca/32.png) [@Flymaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flymaster)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/155 "2008-11-23T02:00:17Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > You passive-aggressive motherfucker! Why can’t you bring your namby-pamby, liberal ass to the point of having an opinion? (dancing with my elbows at my side, my forearms at a 60 degree angle, and my hands flopping in rhythm with my words) Are you afraid you might offend some of our whorish (wow, the spell checker accepted that! must be a real word.) or johnish members? > > Pussy. Dio is not a motherfucker. His mother inserted the dildo into her own ass, he merely instructed her how. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/156 "2008-11-23T02:07:18Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Was [this]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthr](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthr). ead.php?t=409022) the thread you were talking about **Olives**. The one where several of us noticed you had been posting contradictory stories? People can judge for themselves, but you were not attacked in that thread for being a victim, but questioned about having made other posts which seemed to contradict your story. This is my point. The stories are only contradictory if you have a limited understanding of trauma and sexuality. Admittedly, a lot of people are ignorant on these matters. But most people are willing to take in new information, to learn and to trust the judgment of those with direct experience. Instead you decided the satisfaction of outing a troll was worth the risk of rubbing salt in the wounds of a trauma survivor. I was too emotional in that thread to make a single salient point, but others made it for me, and you refused to concede. You are too intellectually rigid, and sometimes, as then, the result is destructive. I admit this point seemed a lot more important a few hours ago. I’ve since had good converation and good food with some new friends, and don’t really care anymore. By the way, I’m not particularly outraged about your positions in this thread, and think you often make good points. I just felt the desire to challenge your perception of yourself as oh so dedicated to protecting women. I know of at least one that you hurt quite badly and felt I might as well speak up. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/157 "2008-11-23T02:14:42Z")
I have no perception of myself as a protector of women. ---
**Author:** ![KneadToKnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kneadtoknow/32/3999_2.png) [@KneadToKnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KneadToKnow)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/158 "2008-11-23T02:20:37Z")
> [@Henrichek](#): > > Lastly, I think you people who need to beat/get beaten for sexual gratification are sick and should get some psychological therapy instead of coming here and claiming people are narrow-minded. Do you have a cite to go along with that broad brush, or are you content to use it on anyone who claims to have an interest in any of the varied BDSM-related spectra? ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_Stream](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@Carol\_Stream](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_Stream)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/159 "2008-11-23T02:21:29Z")
> [@Fish](#): > > It cost him his relationship with a service vendor. When did prostitutes become service vendors, and when can we have prostitutes back? ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910/160 "2008-11-23T02:32:57Z")
> [@KneadToKnow](#): > > Do you have a cite to go along with that broad brush, or are you content to use it on anyone who claims to have an interest in any of the varied BDSM-related spectra? I need to cite my own opinion? Maybe I can dig out a brain-log entry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-dio/473910.md?page=9)