# Hi, Sam Stone! -- I Pit the Blathering Bullshit about Stock Market movements **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 3, 2018, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-sam-stone-i-pit-the-blathering-bullshit-about-stock-market-movements/811706 "2018-04-03T10:42:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-sam-stone-i-pit-the-blathering-bullshit-about-stock-market-movements/811706/81 "2018-06-28T15:10:21Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > No my point is that it is laughable that you believe a government manager would identify which bridge to shut down … > > It is also laughable that you believe a private firm operating the regional transportation network … Braess’s paradox has nothing to do with governments. I thought I mentioned this. It is interesting that your solution to a paradox about laissez-faire capitalism is to postulate a private monopoly. Who’s talking about a “private firm operating the regional transportation network”? I thought you were in favor of free enterprise? George Farnaby owns land on either side of the canyon and erects a bridge. What does your “private firm operating the regional transportation network” do? Blow up George’s bridge with dynamite? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-sam-stone-i-pit-the-blathering-bullshit-about-stock-market-movements/811706/82 "2018-06-28T15:29:08Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Braess’s paradox has nothing to do with governments. I thought I mentioned this. > > It is interesting that your solution to a paradox about laissez-faire capitalism is to postulate a private monopoly. Who’s talking about a “private firm operating the regional transportation network”? > > I thought you were in favor of free enterprise? George Farnaby owns land on either side of the canyon and erects a bridge. What does your “private firm operating the regional transportation network” do? Blow up George’s bridge with dynamite? Most transportation networks would have some degree of regional dominance but not a legal monopoly. Do you think people there would be a patchwork of property owners owning 200 feet of power lines? No, of course a energy supply firm would own miles of power lines. Why would transportation of vehicles/people be so different than the transportation of energy? Do you agree that regional transportation firms could optimize to minimize transit times? If so, Braess’s Paradox does not provide the critique of aliases-fairs you think it does. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-sam-stone-i-pit-the-blathering-bullshit-about-stock-market-movements/811706/83 "2018-06-28T17:01:08Z")
So … Braess’s paradox depicts a simple system of _free competition_ which can be improved _by inflicting some central authority_ (whether cartel or government). And your way to improve the “system which can be improved by inflicting some central authority” is to … [wait for it] … inflict some central authority. Do you think you should add this insight to the Wikipedia page? Oh. I forgot. Your key contribution is to note that the private cartel’s accountant will be smart enough to figure out how to optimize the network, but a government accountant, performing the identical function, will not be so smart. Got it. BTW, your “solution” doesn’t even work in general. The existing roads might be public domain trails. Your profit-seeking cartel might note that it can build a bridge and extract tolls. ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-sam-stone-i-pit-the-blathering-bullshit-about-stock-market-movements/811706/84 "2018-06-28T19:09:01Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > It is also laughable that you believe a private firm operating the regional transportation network could not identify the optimality of the closed bridge system and close the bridge thereby minimizing transit times for customers. The mechanism for this decision would be clear to any idiot that’s made a voluntary buck. What reason does the private firm have to minimize transit times? They are making money from the bridge, and the time commuters spend waiting to cross it doesn’t affect them. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > Per the article - closing the bridge may actually cost them money: > In 2012 in Rouen, a bridge was burned by an accident; during the two following years, other bridges were more used, but the total number of cars crossing bridges was reduced.[4] Similarly, in 2015 in Warsaw, a bridge was closed; authorities observed an increased use of other roads and public transport, but half of the vehicles usually crossing the bridge “disappeared” (52,000 out of 105,000 daily). So why is your private entity closing the bridge if it removes 52,000 tolls (assuming they own the whole network, which you see to be positing)? ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-sam-stone-i-pit-the-blathering-bullshit-about-stock-market-movements/811706/85 "2018-06-29T00:36:15Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > So … > > Braess’s paradox depicts a simple system of _free competition_ which can be improved _by inflicting some central authority_ (whether cartel or government). And your way to improve the “system which can be improved by inflicting some central authority” is to … [wait for it] … inflict some central authority. > > Do you think you should add this insight to the Wikipedia page? > > Oh. I forgot. Your key contribution is to note that the private cartel’s accountant will be smart enough to figure out how to optimize the network, but a government accountant, performing the identical function, will not be so smart. Got it. > > BTW, your “solution” doesn’t even work in general. The existing roads might be public domain trails. Your profit-seeking cartel might note that it can build a bridge and extract tolls. It has nothing to do with which manager is smarter. It has to do with the mechanisms that determine outcomes in the two systems. I explained that to you, old fella. Take a nap. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-sam-stone-i-pit-the-blathering-bullshit-about-stock-market-movements/811706/86 "2018-06-29T00:37:37Z")
> [@Folacin](#): > > What reason does the private firm have to minimize transit times? They are making money from the bridge, and the time commuters spend waiting to cross it doesn’t affect them. > > So why is your private entity closing the bridge if it removes 52,000 tolls (assuming they own the whole network, which you see to be positing)? Who is to say their fees are structured in that way? This is part of what I am driving at. The assumptions for Braess’s paradox are not valid assumptions for a transportation market. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-sam-stone-i-pit-the-blathering-bullshit-about-stock-market-movements/811706/87 "2018-06-29T01:43:37Z")
All this attention on this paradox means, I assume, that you conceded the point that conservatives consistently misstate the applicability of the laffer curve. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-sam-stone-i-pit-the-blathering-bullshit-about-stock-market-movements/811706/88 "2018-06-29T08:18:43Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > You are going to have a tough time with this pitting. **Sam Stone** is generally well respected here even among people with differing ideologies. He certainly is not dumb and almost everyone but you recognizes that. “Not dumb” is not enough to avoid rebuke. I consider **Sam Stone** a deluded ideologue. His posts are clever in the way that a hackish right-wing magazine pundit is clever, so he’s cleverer than the dogged **HurricaneDitka** or some of the other wingers on this board. But he seems to have long ago started idealizing the USA’s right wing, never having had to live under them. I remember mocking him for this years ago–or at least trying to point out how far gone the USA is, in the vain hope that he’d realize the right wing in my country is \*actually \*crazy. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-sam-stone-i-pit-the-blathering-bullshit-about-stock-market-movements/811706/89 "2018-06-29T08:35:11Z")
**WillFarnaby** , oddly, is not quite a case in point. He’s less “right-wing” and more “utterly opposed to government in all its forms.” Quite mad, though. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-sam-stone-i-pit-the-blathering-bullshit-about-stock-market-movements/811706/90 "2018-06-29T12:18:34Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > You are going to have a tough time with this pitting. **Sam Stone** is generally well respected here even among people with differing ideologies. He certainly is not dumb and almost everyone but you recognizes that. It is _precisely_ because **Sam Stone** isn’t dumb that he deserves a Pitting. Beating on a dolt like **Shodan** or **Clothahump** is like kicking an old dog who’s gotten mangy. The Doper **HurricaneDitka** just confuses me: Is he an imbecile? Or just a clownish moron trying to be a troll? But **Sam Stone** is intelligent. He _could_ form rational conclusions about economics or U.S. politics if he weren’t so blindered. If he lacks the time or moral sense to correct his misconceptions, at least he should have the self-awareness to keep his trap shut on topics where he has no useful opinion. When a moron prattles like an imbecile it’s amusing. When an intelligent man prattles like an imbecile, an intervention is called for. Perhaps my abusive language doesn’t seem empathetic, but this Pitting, if he just had the grace and gumption to grasp its validity, would be doing **Sam** a favor. And I keep coming back to his claim that Obama’s onerous anti-business regulations stifled stock market growth — that’s why the NASDAQ “only” quadrupled during the Obama years. Tell me: If _all you knew about **Stone** _ was this comment, would you still consider him “intelligent”? . ---
**Author:** ![Folacin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folacin/32/3195_2.png) [@Folacin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folacin)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2018, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-sam-stone-i-pit-the-blathering-bullshit-about-stock-market-movements/811706/91 "2018-06-29T13:17:25Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Who is to say their fees are structured in that way? This is part of what I am driving at. The assumptions for Braess’s paradox are not valid assumptions for a transportation market. I have never been on a transportation network that wasn’t funded by primarily by usage fees (toll bridges, toll roads, public highways (which are mostly funded by gas taxes which are a reasonable proxy for usage)). What is your funding mechanism that removes the incentive for adding users? Remember, the government can’t get involved. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-sam-stone-i-pit-the-blathering-bullshit-about-stock-market-movements/811706/92 "2018-07-01T05:01:58Z")
lol [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21056719&postcount=5260](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21056719&postcount=5260) ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-sam-stone-i-pit-the-blathering-bullshit-about-stock-market-movements/811706/93 "2018-07-01T05:10:58Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > lol > > [https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21056719&postcount=5260](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21056719&postcount=5260) You look like an idiot. Who was the President who allowed the Russians to conquer Crimea? Allow the Russian proxies to invade eastern Ukraine? Along with the items mentioned in the post you quoted. You are blinded by your hatred and partisan myopia. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-sam-stone-i-pit-the-blathering-bullshit-about-stock-market-movements/811706/94 "2018-07-01T05:14:29Z")
Please do read the idiocy he posted in the context of the thread, kthxbai. And lol @ “allowed”, as if you were arguing here that we needed to send troops into Crimea to kick those nasty Russkies out. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-sam-stone-i-pit-the-blathering-bullshit-about-stock-market-movements/811706/95 "2018-07-01T05:31:44Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Please do read the idiocy he posted in the context of the thread, kthxbai. > > And lol @ “allowed”, as if you were arguing here that we needed to send troops into Crimea to kick those nasty Russkies out. The quoted post was about empowering Putin. The annexation of the Crimea and the invasion of eastern Ukraine did more to strengthen Putin than the agreement with North Korea. Sam Stones review of the Obama administration handling of Russia is correct and can be corroborated by neutral sources like Foreign Policy. Trumps hinting at recognizing the annexation of the Crimea does more to empower Russia. Neither Obama nor Trump had the experience to successfully navigate the stormy seas of foreign affairs. Its moronic to point fingers at any one administration when foreign policy carries over from one administration to the next. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-sam-stone-i-pit-the-blathering-bullshit-about-stock-market-movements/811706/96 "2018-07-01T06:00:38Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > The quoted post was about empowering Putin. The annexation of the Crimea and the invasion of eastern Ukraine did more to strengthen Putin than the agreement with North Korea. Sam Stones review of the Obama administration handling of Russia is correct and can be corroborated by neutral sources like Foreign Policy. Trumps hinting at recognizing the annexation of the Crimea does more to empower Russia. Neither Obama nor Trump had the experience to successfully navigate the stormy seas of foreign affairs. Its moronic to point fingers at any one administration when foreign policy carries over from one administration to the next. The _thread_ is about the Mueller investigation. Regardless any mistakes Obama made re: the Crimea it has _absolutely nothing_ to do with the topic, and his conclusion, that there is more evidence of Obama/Putin collusion than Trump/Putin is Hannity levels of stupid, well-deserving to be linked-to in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-sam-stone-i-pit-the-blathering-bullshit-about-stock-market-movements/811706/97 "2018-07-01T06:20:35Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Braess’s paradox depicts a simple system of _free competition_ which can be improved _by inflicting some central authority_ (whether cartel or government). And your way to improve the “system which can be improved by inflicting some central authority” is to … [wait for it] … inflict some central authority. Braess’ paradox might not be the best analogy, though. It is basically fluid dynamics in a complex system. More, smaller pipes will function better, but introducing a larger pipe might starve the efficiency of the broader system. Cash flow is a little different from a physical fluid (which tends to correlate well with traffic, if you introduce a strong unpredictability component. In a properly functioning market system, you have competition, which spreads out the flow load across a diverse array of channels (sellers\<-\>buyers). Where you run into problems is where there is constriction (inability to provide or overstock for whatever reason), which is “solved” by easing restrictions on credit and regulations that inhibit production. Then, of course, there is cornering. It may well be a valid point that monopolies are facilitated by the government, which ends up passing laws to strengthen them because they pay it to do so. Get rid of that kind of government interference in the market and … um … I guess it is pretty hard to guess what would happen. Some kind of _cosa nostra_ type situation, most likely. This is the sticking point with market dogma. Monopolies are generally a net negative, but the market wants less regulation, which seems to end up fostering monopolism. Tell an Austrianist that you want to inhibit the formation of monopolies and it ends up being the heresy of defeating the greed motivator that keeps innovation and growth moving apace. You see, the market has a facet. And another facet. And a third one, but the second facet has several facets within it, and, on, _ad infinitum_ (I am not being facetious). Baess’ Paradox fails to refute or support market dogma because of the whole system’s complexity, which is exactly the same shortcoming that **Sam** ’s analogies suffer. What is apparent is that dogma sucks. Laffer’s napkin sketch may have some validity to it, but it should not be used as a be-all-end-all approach. No one has the ultimate solution, and that is **Sam Stone** ’s biggest weakness: that _he does_. Never trust anyone who has the answer to our problems, because that person is going to be full of shit. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2018, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-sam-stone-i-pit-the-blathering-bullshit-about-stock-market-movements/811706/98 "2018-07-01T10:43:33Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Braess’ paradox might not be the best analogy, though. It is basically fluid dynamics in a complex system… > > Where you run into problems is where there is constriction (inability to provide or overstock for whatever reason), which is “solved” by easing restrictions on credit and regulations that inhibit production… > What is apparent is that dogma sucks. Laffer’s napkin sketch may have some validity to it, but it should not be used as a be-all-end-all approach. No one has the ultimate solution, and that is **Sam Stone** ’s biggest weakness: that _he does_. Never trust anyone who has the answer to our problems, because that person is going to be full of shit. I think we’re in agreement. Braess’s paradox works because there are constraints that cannot be relaxed. (I’ve wondered if a Braess-like paradox could be constructed involving, say, a very rare element with two uses.) The elegance of the paradox to me is that it is \*such a clearcut example of complete failure of a “free market.” \* People are happy to play a bridge toll … but everyone (except the toll collector) is better off if terrorists blow up the bridge! And real-world economic systems _do_ have constraints, even if not so extreme. Wasn’t it J.M. Keynes himself who said “In a system that’s totally without friction … everyone slips, falls down and cracks their head open dead”? (Maybe not: Google didn’t find this quote. But it was something about everybody being dead.) One weird example doesn’t “disprove market economics” of course. but it exposes to ridicule the dogmatic absolutist thinking of someone like **Stone**. He refused to acknowledge the paradox’s existence, muttering that he knew something about networks! :smack: I’m sure he was smart enough to grasp the example, once he reviewed Wikipedia. I just wanted to hear him say “Yep! Interesting little paradox.” He couldn’t do it; he’s under some form of hypnotic paralysis. (Once every year or two I taunt him, asking for a preprint of his _Braess Refuted!_ paper. No response.) This is what irritates me especially about **Sam Stone**. Like the wizards in Harry Potter who are afraid to even whisper “Voldemort,” **Stone** is unable to write “I was wrong.” I’m sure **Sam** is intelligent and could provide useful insights — he probably understands economics better than a few of the Board’s liberals! But he seems _incapable of learning_. I try to admit when I’m wrong, but where is **Sam** ’s humility? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-sam-stone-i-pit-the-blathering-bullshit-about-stock-market-movements/811706/99 "2019-02-06T17:40:24Z")
\ Sorry. Just looking for my keys. Carry on. \ ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2019, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hi-sam-stone-i-pit-the-blathering-bullshit-about-stock-market-movements/811706/100 "2019-02-06T18:01:34Z")
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