# Hidden Devil in painting in the Basilica of St. Francis of Assisi **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 5, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962 "2011-11-05T16:12:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962/21 "2011-11-05T20:06:20Z")
Devil or the local Jewish merchant? //badda bing bang Kidding. I don’t know what it is, but I do think that the artist knew it was there - after all, he would’ve spent days looking at it, and paintings come together in layers. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962/22 "2011-11-05T20:17:41Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > This. If it was drawn on purpose, it wouldn’t _strike_ us as a face, it would look like a _particular person_, with eyes, irises, eyelashes, wrinkles, etc. Giotto was a better artist than what we’re seeing. I don’t know about that. If it is meant to be face (which I doubt, but if…), it is meant to be a hidden one. He could not make it too clear obvious or his patrons would simply tell him to take it out (or have him burned at the stake for devil worship). It woul dneed to vague and ill-defined, just for deniability. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962/23 "2011-11-05T20:30:18Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > I don’t know about that. If it is meant to be face (which I doubt, but if…), it is meant to be a hidden one. He could not make it too clear obvious or his patrons would simply tell him to take it out (or have him burned at the stake for devil worship). It woul dneed to vague and ill-defined, just for deniability. Drawing something crap and drawing something obscure are entirely different. ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962/24 "2011-11-05T20:32:14Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Devil or the local Jewish merchant? //badda bing bang > > Kidding. I don’t know what it is, but I do think that the artist knew it was there - after all, he would’ve spent days looking at it, and paintings come together in layers. As I mentioned earlier, this is buon fresco and does not come together in layers – that section of painting was whipped up in less than a day. ---
**Author:** ![APB](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@APB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APB)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962/25 "2011-11-05T21:39:42Z")
The _Reuters_ story seems to me to be a classic example of journalistic oversimplification. For one thing, this isn’t a breaking story - Chiara Frugoni published full details of her theory in the August issue of the _Burlington Magazine_. Moreover, her actual views as set out in that article were hedged around with a number of caveats. She realises that there isn’t any scholarly concensus as to whether Giotto was responsible for the _Death of St Francis_ and so carefully avoids committing herself on that specific point. She also realises that whoever was responsible, he wouldn’t necessarily have painted that particular bit of the fresco. She also isn’t convinced that the ‘horns’ are deliberate and so she isn’t sure that it’s a devil. And, personally, I’m not convinced that any of it was intentional. ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962/26 "2011-11-06T01:06:46Z")
FWIW this is what [Teh Devilll](http://www.wga.hu/art/g/giotto/padova/4lastjud/15_lastj.jpg)looks like in Giotto’s world, and other [junior devils](http://static.artbible.info/large/giotto_hel02.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962/27 "2011-11-06T01:38:02Z")
> [@capybara](#): > > FWIW this is what [Teh Devilll](http://www.wga.hu/art/g/giotto/padova/4lastjud/15_lastj.jpg)looks like in Giotto’s world, and other [junior devils](http://static.artbible.info/large/giotto_hel02.jpg). Huh. Seeing the second link makes me think that maybe there _is_ a devil / demon deliberately painted in the clouds. The two leftmost people both resemble the profile devil face. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962/28 "2011-11-06T01:39:57Z")
> [@capybara](#): > > FWIW this is what [Teh Devilll](http://www.wga.hu/art/g/giotto/padova/4lastjud/15_lastj.jpg)looks like in Giotto’s world, and other [junior devils](http://static.artbible.info/large/giotto_hel02.jpg). He appears to be overdoing it on the colloidal silver. Also, he’s ever got some sort of bizarre venereal disease or he’s giving birth to a full grown man. ---
**Author:** ![kriss132](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/76d3ee/32.png) [@kriss132](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kriss132)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962/29 "2011-11-06T01:53:10Z")
can u put a circle around it and post the pic on here? ---
**Author:** ![kriss132](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/76d3ee/32.png) [@kriss132](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kriss132)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962/30 "2011-11-06T01:55:40Z")
ummm can u pull the pic up and circle where its at and post it on here? thanks ---
**Author:** ![capybara](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/capybara/32/202_2.png) [@capybara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capybara)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962/31 "2011-11-06T01:58:40Z")
> [@kriss132](#): > > ummm can u pull the pic up and circle where its at and post it on here? thanks Link in post 4. Can’t post pics on the board. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962/32 "2011-11-06T02:04:01Z")
I personally don’t see the devil. I see Lenin. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962/33 "2011-11-06T02:06:32Z")
For people who still haven’t seen it, I’ve cropped and rotated the portion that shows the ‘face’ (I’ve included the ‘horn’ too) [here](http://crowaptok.com/images/in_the_details.jpg). ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962/34 "2011-11-06T02:25:55Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > he’s giving birth to a full grown man. Defecating one, presumably. I’m not sure whence that particular bit of imagery came, but it also showed up about a century later in Bosch’s Garden of Earthly Delights. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962/35 "2011-11-06T02:35:09Z")
If it showed up in Bosch, then _nobody_ sane is sure where it came from. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962/36 "2011-11-06T03:24:01Z")
Am I the only one seeing two distinct faces there? ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962/37 "2011-11-06T04:41:30Z")
> [@Larry\_Mudd](#): > > That’s rather a naive assertion - rendering clouds is a necessarily stochastic process. > > The “face” doesn’t resemble a face in the style of the artist, it resembles the sort of face that we “see” with the aid of the shortcuts wired into our brains which help us to pick faces out of a complex scene. Like [this one](http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/214/anotherfaceomg.png/), which you will hereafter not be able to unsee, now that you’ve been “helped” to see it. > > In painting clouds, the artist is going to blot down some rough shapes and then add shading and highlights relatively haphazardly - this is necessarily going to produce the exact same sort of field that lends itself so well to pareidolia in reality. How do you know the second “face” wasn’t intentional? Oddly enough, there seems to be a notch in the middle of the upper lip which makes it look like the face of a lion or tiger, aided by the parallel strokes being “whiskers”. Or it could be that the artist painted over something he did previously, but traces remained which can still be discerned. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > This. If it was drawn on purpose, it wouldn’t _strike_ us as a face, it would look like a _particular person_, with eyes, irises, eyelashes, wrinkles, etc. Giotto was a better artist than what we’re seeing. I don’t think this is a valid argument. If he wanted to make it indistinct, that was certainly within his power. In my opinion, it’s more probable that the reported face was put there intentionally. As to the second “face”, that’s so indistinct it’s more probable that really is a case of pareidolia. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962/38 "2011-11-06T07:06:26Z")
> [@rowrrbazzle](#): > > I don’t think this is a valid argument. If he wanted to make it indistinct, that was certainly within his power. Drawing something crappy and drawing something indistinct are separate things. That’s a crappy face. ---
**Author:** ![KashewTime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e9a140/32.png) [@KashewTime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KashewTime)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962/39 "2011-11-06T09:36:25Z")
I also see two very discernible faces-one is a larger one behind the “devil” face, the mouth being the area around his ear and a larger chin under the devil’s chin. Second face also has a wide open mouth with teeth on top. You can see it [here](http://news.yahoo.com/photos/handout-detail-fresco-giotto-basilica-st-francis-assisi-photo-132028353.html) ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2011, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962/40 "2011-11-06T13:00:40Z")
It is almost certainly on purpose. It was not unusual for artists of the time to place little faces and other “easter eggs”, to use a modern term, into large works like this. Michelangelo in particular is notorious for this. It is almost certainly NOT a devil, it is likely that if he intended it to be easily caught it represents a nature spirit of some sort. These forces, usually debased forms of pagan deities, were thought to be present, but subservient to god and his angels. These beings were often utilized to fill space, express less than reverent sentiments, or illustrate God’s superiourity over earlier pagan religions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hidden-devil-in-painting-in-the-basilica-of-st-francis-of-assisi/601962.md?page=3)