# Hideous crash into spectators at Reno Air Races today. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 17, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579 "2011-09-17T00:49:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![CharleeSm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b38774/32.png) [@CharleeSm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CharleeSm)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2011, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/201 "2011-10-01T20:06:09Z")
One “fact” that has been repeated many times is that at the impact point there was an area 3 feet deep annd 8 feet long. This is a strange description in that it doesn’t mention a width. I think this is the result of a misinterpretation. If you look at the NPR video of the aftermath, injured spectators are being taken over the impact point, which appears to be about 3 feet wide and 8 feet long, with a large puddle of what appears to be coolant next to it. The gouge doesn’t seem to be more the 3 inches deep, which is amazing considering the speed that the aircraft hit the tarmac. Another scenerio to consider for the crash is that Leeward, after the high Gs while in the vertical bank, was pinned down in the forward part of the cockpit but still conscious. From this position the only control he may have been able to operate was the elevator trim tab. The natural instinct for humans, when they are in trouble in an aircraft, is to pull up elevator. Leeward was an expert pilot, however, and he may have put in full up elevator trim as the best option to keep the aircraft away from the crowd. Being pinned down, he probably had no idea what the attitude and position of the aircraft was. The photos we have seen show no evidence of flutter in the trim tab before it separated from the elevator. The full up trim, at the speed the aircraft was at, could have overloaded the tab’s structure, causing 2/3 of it to breakaway. Photos show the remaining 1/3 to still be in the full up trim position, which could explain why the elevator is at almost its full up position (for the speed it was at) up to the impact. Leeward, or the weight of his body, was in no positon to be pulling back on the stick. Since I was not at Reno this year some may say the following is easy for me to say, but this may be a “Its A Wonderful Life” moment for aviation enthusiasts. If the race organizers have to give back all the money that spectators paid, like Jimmy Stewart’s Savings and Loan, it may be the straw that breaks air racing’s back. Maybe someone needs to set up a fund that aviation minded people can contribute $50 or $100 to keep air racing alive. ---
**Author:** ![Ninja\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f04885/32.png) [@Ninja\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ninja_II)\ **Post date:** [October 2, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/202 "2011-10-02T02:36:54Z")
Gray Ghost, It appears that The Galloping Ghost had only one elevator trim tab (the left one) that was functional. This was also the case with Voodoo Chile at the time of her incident. There are indications that The Galloping Ghost crew may have been cautioned not to do that based upon the Voodoo Chile incident. It has been reported that the rivets on the Voodoo Chile trim tab sheared thus releasing the load on the trim tab. There is a tribute video on YouTube, “Final Flight of the Ghost”, which has the best view of the mishap I have seen to date (impact omitted) beginning at about the seven minute mark. There is a slow motion replay which is also useful. As The Galloping Ghost was in the final pylon turn it appears that the aircraft banks even more, the nose dips and then comes up (rudder input perhaps), the aircraft rolls out of the turn, experiences a severe pull up with possible approach to stall and enters what appears to be a rudder roll/barrel roll until impact with the ground. Regards > [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Thank you all for the very interesting commentary on this tragic accident. What a terrifying thing to have witnessed, **Sam**. I’m glad that you and yours are o.k. Did the other poster ever get contact with, IIRC, their brother-in-law who was at the Races? > > I’ve always wanted to go to the Reno races; just was never able to make it out there. FWIW, I’m not as sanguine as you are about the Races ever restarting. I had thought the Races were controversial (In the general media: I have no problem with the Races, and would like to see them continue.) due to the cost, danger to the participants, running out of Merlin parts, that sort of thing. It seems that a few degrees difference in the roll would have resulted in the airplane going through all of the grandstands, like the horrific [1955 LeMans accident](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1955_Le_Mans_disaster), only much more so. I cannot see an insurance company willingly accepting that kind of potential liability, no matter what disclaimers the spectators agree to beforehand. > > As far as the witness accounts that the pilot was aiming away from the stands, I just took it as wishful thinking. A sudden 10+G pitchup, even if the pilot normally could take that G-load, may have been violent enough to bang his head and induce LOC. > > Granted that this is all speculation until NTSB does their usual thorough, professional writeup of the accident, but isn’t there a great deal of torque from a P-51 prop going full out? Articles such as[this one](http://www.warbirdalley.com/articles/p51pr.htm) suggest that rudder and aileron inputs are required to keep a P-51 headed straight in a connected turn. Even assuming that both elevator trim tabs were lost—loosing only one would seem to impart a roll moment all by itself—wouldn’t the torque, asymmetrical prop wind, and prop precessional effects all lead to a leftward roll? This left roll, when coupled with the extreme pitch-up moment from the tab less elevator, would seem to lead to **Sam** ’s hypothesis of Galloping Ghost barrel-rolling into the crowd. > > I don’t have much else to add after the commentary from the pilots in the forum. Thank you all again for reminding me why I read this forum. ---
**Author:** ![Ninja\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f04885/32.png) [@Ninja\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ninja_II)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/203 "2011-10-03T04:48:51Z")
> [@CharleeSm](#): > > Despite early reports, there was no Mayday call from Leeward. When he pulled up, people were heard to say “He’s having a Mayday”. This is what caused the confusion. Correct. Some early reports of a “Mayday!” were made by people who saw the pull up and thought it must have been a “Mayday!” call. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2011, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/204 "2011-10-03T12:51:27Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I’ve missed the part explaining why… At least we can agree on this. ---
**Author:** ![CharleeSm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b38774/32.png) [@CharleeSm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CharleeSm)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/205 "2011-10-27T00:07:40Z")
From AVweb: Video memory cards and equipment recovered from the wreckage of Jimmy Leeward’s P-51 at the National Championship Air Races last month in Reno were too badly damaged to be of any help in the investigation of the crash, the NTSB said Friday. However, a card retrieved from flight data equipment and telemetry received by the ground crew of the Galloping Ghost are still being examined as investigators piece together the five seconds between a normal home-stretch pylon turn and a high-speed dive that ended with a horrific crash that killed 11, including Leeward, and injured scores of others. “NTSB investigators continue to review the dozens of videos and hundreds of photographs provided to them by spectators at the air race,” the board said in a news release. Investigators continue to examine the left elevator trim tab to determine how its departure from the aircraft affected the chain of events. The role of the trim tab has been the subject of much debate on various blogs and forums and some have concluded its loss was a consequence and not a cause. It will, of course, be months and perhaps years before the NTSB reaches its final conclusions on the tragedy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579.md?page=10)