# Hideous crash into spectators at Reno Air Races today. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [September 17, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579 "2011-09-17T00:49:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/41 "2011-09-17T19:58:41Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > Agree. The turtle-decked Mustangs were sold to the English with less powerful Allison Engines, and they were not very numerous. These didn’t carry the P-51 designation at the time, though it often gets thrown on in the histories. The USAAF used P-51As, -Bs, and -Cs in addition to the D-models. The P-51As had the Allison engines, and were unsuitable for high-altitude combat. They were useful for ground attack aircraft though. The -Bs on up had the Packard-built Merlins and were used by the U.S. and British. The C-model had the ‘Malcom hood’ as seen on the Spitfire, and which greatly improved visibility over the B-model. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/42 "2011-09-17T20:39:17Z")
Hard to say what model it is… The hood isn’t standard for any model, though it looks closest to the B model. But the tail indicates D model or later. There is vertical panel running along the spine of the plane, that does a slow rise rise to the vertical stabilizer, that didn’t appear in the B model. IIRC, is had to be added for stability because the D model’s fuselage was shortened a bit from earlier versions. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/43 "2011-09-17T20:44:39Z")
Oh yeah, and so blatant I didn’t even see it – the big air scoop which was common to all models is missing, which pretty much completely changes the shape of the airframe. This plane is so heavily modified maybe it doesn’t make much sense to consider it any particular model at all. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/44 "2011-09-17T20:51:36Z")
These airplanes aren’t even close to the originals. The canopies are almost always custom, chopped down to lower drag. Galloping Ghost was competing in the highest category, which requires very extensive modifications. The P-51’s with the stock airframes and engines are at least 100 mph slower. As an example of the extent of the modificatins some of these airplanes have, one ‘WWII’ race plane is flying with a wing from a Learjet. Another has a huge propeller from a P3 Orion. A lot of them have modified airfoils and cooling systems, and all of the top competitors are running engines modified to have more than twice the stock horsepower, and have to be rebuilt constantly. There are almost always major engine failures during the races because they are pushed to such extreme power levels. So, don’t assume that any of the specs from the original planes apply to these racers. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/45 "2011-09-17T21:08:22Z")
The information I’ve been able to find on-line says this airplane was _originally_ a P51-D but has a completely different engine, clipped wings, custom canopy… it’s rather unique now. Or rather, it was. Now it’s pretty much confetti. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/46 "2011-09-17T21:12:54Z")
My manager’s brother-in-law was there with a friend. The friend is in critical condition, and they haven’t been able to get a hold of the brother-in-law, at least as of this morning. I haven’t heard anything since. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/47 "2011-09-17T21:29:48Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Hard to say what model it is… The hood isn’t standard for any model, though it looks closest to the B model. But the tail indicates D model or later. There is vertical panel running along the spine of the plane, that does a slow rise rise to the vertical stabilizer, that didn’t appear in the B model. IIRC, is had to be added for stability because the D model’s fuselage was shortened a bit from earlier versions. Not necessarily for stability. I’ve seen speed mod’s that tapered the vertical tail plane. No idea how it works. Might be to conceal antenna’s. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/48 "2011-09-17T21:41:07Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I guess I’m wondering why the loss of a trim tab would have such a drastic effect. The trim tab itself would not cause the plane to pitch up. The plane was seen to shudder which would have to be a damn violent event to actually see. Since the same event created a pitch up event of 10 g’s it’s very possible that the pilot passed out and never regained consciousness in such a short time frame. I doubt they wear G-suits when racing. It bothers me that they keep referring to the plane as a vintage WW-II airplane. There is nothing vintage about this highly modified machine. I wonder if they used metal control surfaces which I believe are more susceptible to flutter than fabric covered ones. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/49 "2011-09-17T22:27:20Z")
Apparently, there are 9 people confirmed dead. Just awful news, all the way around… ---
**Author:** ![Kevbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e47774/32.png) [@Kevbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kevbo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/50 "2011-09-17T22:37:54Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The trim tab itself would not cause the plane to pitch up. Except it well could. For high speed flight, it would be set to near full down trim, and loosing that down trim could cause a violent pitch up. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/51 "2011-09-17T22:50:53Z")
Purely out of morbid curiosity, in an accident like this, are there likely to be successful lawsuits from survivors and families of those killed, or would the fine print on the back of the admission ticket cover the owners/promoters of the Air Races from liability? Are the local Reno ambulance-chasers licking their chops even as dozens of people are still fighting for their lives? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/52 "2011-09-17T22:59:57Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > Except it well could. For high speed flight, it would be set to near full down trim, and loosing that down trim could cause a violent pitch up. Racers talk about having to do that with unmodified frames but these are all highly modified planes in the unlimited category. I’d be surprised if they don’t run custom stabilizers to compensate for both elevator and aileron trim extremes. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/53 "2011-09-17T23:14:28Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > Purely out of morbid curiosity, in an accident like this, are there likely to be successful lawsuits from survivors and families of those killed, or would the fine print on the back of the admission ticket cover the owners/promoters of the Air Races from liability? > > Are the local Reno ambulance-chasers licking their chops even as dozens of people are still fighting for their lives? Fine print is meaningless on a ticket. You can’t write off your liability. It would be like the statement on a parking garage ticket absolving liability for theft or damage. You can print anything you like and hope someone believes it but it doesn’t hold any weight. ---
**Author:** ![MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MPB_in_Salt_Lake)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/54 "2011-09-17T23:18:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Fine print is meaningless on a ticket. You can’t write off your liability. It would be like the statement on a parking garage ticket absolving liability for theft or damage. You can print anything you like and hope someone believes it but it doesn’t hold any weight. If this is accurate, factual information, I imagine that every Personal Injury Attorney in the State of Nevada is on their way to Reno right now… Is this the end of the road for the Reno Air Races forever? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/55 "2011-09-17T23:30:41Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The trim tab itself would not cause the plane to pitch up. Right. That’s what I was on about earlier. It’s unclear to me how losing a trim tab could result in a catastrophic crash. I wondered if it was an effect, rather than a cause. > [@Magiver](#): > > The plane was seen to shudder which would have to be a damn violent event to actually see. Since the same event created a pitch up event of 10 g’s it’s very possible that the pilot passed out and never regained consciousness in such a short time frame. I doubt they wear G-suits when racing. > > \ > > I wonder if they used metal control surfaces which I believe are more susceptible to flutter than fabric covered ones. I’m pretty sure they don’t wear speed jeans. Having seen the image someone posted earlier, I’m beginning to doubt flutter. I’d expect flutter to rip the elevators off. (I’ll reiterate, we’re amateurs doing armchair crash investigation here, and we don’t have all the data.) I’ll guess without looking that the elevators were modified to metal. Anyway, the question I have is still: If the trim tab failure did actually cause the crash, how? Was so much trim dialed in that removing the tab would cause a violent pitch-up? Did the modifications require a lot of trim? > [@Kevbo](#): > > Except it well could. For high speed flight, it would be set to near full down trim, and loosing that down trim could cause a violent pitch up. Why would it be trimmed all the way down for high-speed flight? (I fly slow things.) ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/56 "2011-09-17T23:37:28Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Why would it be trimmed all the way down for high-speed flight? (I fly slow things.) Because adding power increases lift, so maintaining altitude requires a downward pitch. And an unlimited racer has a lot of engine power. As to how the trim tab could cause a pitch up… The plane was going really really fast. Who knows what can happen when something goes out of adjustment in the airflow that rapidly? And a trim tab is part of the flight control system, so I’m not surprised that the plane went ape. Recall that the Challenger disaster wasn’t actually an explosion. It disintegrated aerodynamically because the rocket venting twisted the stack in supersonic airflow. That caused an immediate structural failure. I’m wondering in the case of the Reno plane if it was a simple matter of speed exacerbating what might otherwise have been a survivable malfunction. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/57 "2011-09-17T23:44:10Z")
> [@Mach Tuck](#): > > Because adding power increases lift, so maintaining altitude requires a downward pitch. And an unlimited racer has a lot of engine power. See, this is why I’m not an accident investigator. I assumed that the plane’s modifications took into account how it would be flown, and would be naturally trimmed to fly in that regime. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/58 "2011-09-17T23:49:16Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > See, this is why I’m not an accident investigator. I assumed that the plane’s modifications took into account how it would be flown, and would be naturally trimmed to fly in that regime. Well, that’s possible too I suppose. But as you said earlier, we’re all just spitballing here. It was in the news that another fatality occurred today at an airshow in West Virginia. T-28, I think. And a few weeks ago there was a biplane fatality and a wingwalker who fell off his plane. Not a good airshow season so far. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/59 "2011-09-18T00:04:17Z")
You can’t design away a fundamental issue like trim. The problem is that these planes have an extremely wide speed range. That requires extensive trim. Ideally, a plane like this would have a ‘flying stabilator’ that could adjust its angle of incidence to trim the plane. But that adds weight and complexity. A good example of how much trim is required at high speed, even for a light plane, can be seen when trying to recover from a spiral dive. One of the big risks of spiral dive recovery is that once you level the wings and return to the previous trim condition (except at a much higher airspeed), the nose can pitch up so violently that you can suffer an airframe failure. So, losing a trim tab on an elevator can be a violent event at the speeds these planes are going during the race. But as the _Voodoo Chile_ case shows, if you can get the airplane slowed down, losing a trim tab is survivable. In Leeward’s case, he just had the bad luck to have it happen at low altitude, and probably while the wings weren’t level. So instead of a violent pitch up to several thousand feet, he spiralled into the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2011, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579/60 "2011-09-18T00:19:10Z")
> [@MPB\_in\_Salt\_Lake](#): > > Is this the end of the road for the Reno Air Races forever? With nine dead so far, I can’t imagine that any insurer anywhere will be willing to insure a similar event in the future. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hideous-crash-into-spectators-at-reno-air-races-today/596579.md?page=4)