# Hierchal value of life in wartime. What should be the order? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 17, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hierchal-value-of-life-in-wartime-what-should-be-the-order/308728 "2005-06-17T17:39:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hierchal-value-of-life-in-wartime-what-should-be-the-order/308728/61 "2005-06-25T13:35:37Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > On the contrary, it is a legitimate and debatable point. One, however which on reflection I do not hold. If you will recall, the banning of one prominent poster has included factors of both wishing persons to be killed or celebrating their deaths and also later claiming that the poster did not hold that position. A statement that there may be persons who hold that position that includes the logical train they will follow to arrive at or defend that position is suitable for **Great Debates**. An assertion, based on a number of unexpressed assumptions, that it is your belief that they should die or that others should celebrate is not acceptable. Withdrawing the claim after being challenged is mitigating, but not exonerating. Please take care to avoid this expression in the future. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hierchal-value-of-life-in-wartime-what-should-be-the-order/308728/62 "2005-06-25T16:21:54Z")
The issue under discussion is who should die and who should live. Yours is a judgment on the point under debate. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hierchal-value-of-life-in-wartime-what-should-be-the-order/308728/63 "2005-06-25T16:43:53Z")
There is no difference between “our” civilians and “theirs,” especially when it comes to children. All civilians need to be protected before any soldier. Our soldiers are not more valuable than “their” innocent children. And if civilans are used to protect a military target. Then you don’t attack the target. Tough titty. It is never justifiable to murder innocent people. This is especially true in a case like Iraq when we were the aggressor and had no defensive justification to be there in the first place. You can’t justify killing children in any case but you sure as HELL can’t justify it when you aren’t being attacked and aren’t in any danger. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hierchal-value-of-life-in-wartime-what-should-be-the-order/308728/64 "2005-06-25T16:52:07Z")
I seem to remember people celebrating the deaths of Saddam Hussein’s sons, as well as many supportive sentiments about hunting down and killing Osama bin Laden, al Qaeda, etc. Is that ok? If so, why? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2005, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hierchal-value-of-life-in-wartime-what-should-be-the-order/308728/65 "2005-06-25T22:44:43Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Yours is a judgment on the point under debate. Mine is a judgment on a particular expression within the debate that took it from the realm of discussion to the realm of personal desire. > [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I seem to remember people celebrating the deaths of Saddam Hussein’s sons, as well as many supportive sentiments about hunting down and killing Osama bin Laden, al Qaeda, etc. Is that ok? If so, why? My memory is that those expressions took place in the **Pit** (where the discussion regarding wishing death on people outside this board seems to be not yet resolved), not in **GD**. They also occurred at a time when I was not yet wearing jackboots. Celebrating the deaths of people whom posters on this board may know and love is simply disruptive to the process of discussion. You will note that I did not make any effort to remove the topic from discussion. I simply noted that **Sevastopol** ’s personal expression of celebration was inappropriate in this forum. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hierchal-value-of-life-in-wartime-what-should-be-the-order/308728/66 "2005-06-26T02:47:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Mine is a judgment on a particular expression within the debate that took it from the realm of discussion to the realm of personal desire Only if you credit me with being amongst “right thinking persons.” A boast I’m loath to make. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2005, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hierchal-value-of-life-in-wartime-what-should-be-the-order/308728/67 "2005-06-26T14:45:45Z")
In my opinion, Nations are made up of the civilians who live there. The nation does not exist unless there are people to create and support it. Thus those people are responsible for the actions of that body they created. 1. Soldiers - They protect your civililians and if you kill them all off you have no one left to do the protecting. 2. Your Civillians 3. Enemy children - not old enough yet to stop their country from starting wars. 4. The enemy - There is no difference between the soldier and civillian. Sure you try to kill the soldier because he is the one directly trying to kill you, but it is the civillians who allow their country to exist and persecute any war. To **Neurotik** who was trying to decide on what is a reasonable amount of your side to sacrifice for the lives of the other side. I think it is strange to be empathetic to enemies rather than your own people who should be sharing similar values to you. If the enemy had those same values they probably wouldn’t be enemies. I don’t understand this relativistic attitude at all. If I was a leader of a country and I could save one person on my side by eliminating everyone on their side, I’d do so. And sleep peacefully because of it. But if I was a leader of a country I’d do every damn thing I could to prevent a war from happening to avoid having to make such a decision in the first place. That’s the sort of thing that would keep me awake nights. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2005, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hierchal-value-of-life-in-wartime-what-should-be-the-order/308728/68 "2005-06-27T09:02:08Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > 1. The enemy - There is no difference between the soldier and civillian. Sure you try to kill the soldier because he is the one directly trying to kill you, but it is the civillians who allow their country to exist and persecute any war. So you’re OK with the attack on the Twin Towers, then? All US citizens are fair game, after all they allowed their government’s foreign policies. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2005, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hierchal-value-of-life-in-wartime-what-should-be-the-order/308728/69 "2005-06-27T10:04:28Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > So you’re OK with the attack on the Twin Towers, then? > All US citizens are fair game, after all they allowed their government’s foreign policies. Right? Which foreign government was responsible for the attack in New York? Or was it just a bunch of religious wackos who did this? By harbouring said wackos the Taliban in Afghanistan got their asses kicked, but did they actually plan the attack? Nope, that was done by a bunch of nuts did who should have been looking closer to home as to who was causing their problems (whatever those might be), not half way round the world. ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2005, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hierchal-value-of-life-in-wartime-what-should-be-the-order/308728/70 "2005-06-27T12:01:48Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > Which foreign government was responsible for the attack in New York? ??? Don’t understand why you introduce this distinction in your reasoning. It’s ok for governments to kill enemy civilians, not for rebels, guerillas or resistance fighters? ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2005, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hierchal-value-of-life-in-wartime-what-should-be-the-order/308728/71 "2005-06-27T12:15:03Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > ??? > Don’t understand why you introduce this distinction in your reasoning. > It’s ok for governments to kill enemy civilians, not for rebels, guerillas or resistance fighters? It isn’t okay for anyone to kill anyone else unless there is a good reason for doing so, as in self-defense or to aid others in their defense. But as we are discussing what happens in a war then why bring up what a bunch of wackos do outside of one? ---
**Author:** ![Latro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a87d85/32.png) [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2005, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hierchal-value-of-life-in-wartime-what-should-be-the-order/308728/72 "2005-06-27T12:28:32Z")
> [@Uzi](#): > > It isn’t okay for anyone to kill anyone else unless there is a good reason for doing so, as in self-defense or to aid others in their defense. Yet another distinction, what about if there is a war for no good reason, like Iraq or the invasion of Poland? > [@](#): > > But as we are discussing what happens in a war then why bring up what a bunch of wackos do outside of one? Outside of one? Ok its not your typical conventional war but Al-Qaida did declare war on the US. There is no ‘War on Terror’? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hierchal-value-of-life-in-wartime-what-should-be-the-order/308728.md?page=3)