# High Rise Fire London **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 15, 2017, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013 "2017-06-15T05:51:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013/61 "2017-06-20T15:30:49Z")
> [@MarcusF](#): > > Adding sprinklers to 60’s towers can obviously be done. Oxford City Council have recently refurbished 5 tower blocks in the city that included sprinklers and cladding. I’m not claiming it can’t be done - as you point out, it has been done - but if the money is not available it will not be done and the excuse you will hear is “it can’t be done”. It can’t be done for fiscal reasons. Seems pretty clear to me that those in control of the rehab put money above safety. > [@](#): > > Though I see on re-reading the message they say the cladding is “fire retardant”. This does not mean it does not have a polyethylene core as, according to the manufacturers, aluminium clad polyethylene IS fire retardant. Uh, right. Look, polyethylene, along with all those other sorts of foams used for things like insulation, burn pretty damn well. The only way to make them “fire resistant” is to _completely_ cover them so that oxygen can’t get to them. Meaning (based on the information I have which is not complete) that the side with the aluminum on it was “fire resistant” but not anywhere the foam core is exposed to the air. The thing is, it’s a normal practice to install external cladding/siding with an airgap, to deal with moisture build up. Which means, in this case, heat and oxygen can get to that foam and start the plastic burning. The only way to make this shit “fire resistant”, if at all, is to install it flush to a surface with no air gap - which was not done. Failure to properly install a material can drop its fire resistance to zero. Which is what seems to have happened here. The other thing is I’m suspicious about any manufacturer saying a foam-core product is “fire resistant” without qualification - are there specific installation requirements or any other conditions that must be met? Then we have the problem of unscrupulous manufacturers, especially but not exclusively in China who might outright lie. To re-iterate - our information right now is at best incomplete. That’s why investigations are done by people with more knowledge and better tools than we have here in our armchairs. We won’t know for sure until after the investigation is complete, and maybe not even then. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013/62 "2017-06-20T15:45:26Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Look, polyethylene, along with all those other sorts of foams used for things like insulation, burn pretty damn well. The only way to make them “fire resistant” is to _completely_ cover them so that oxygen can’t get to them. Meaning (based on the information I have which is not complete) that the side with the aluminum on it was “fire resistant” but not anywhere the foam core is exposed to the air. The thing is, it’s a normal practice to install external cladding/siding with an airgap, to deal with moisture build up. Which means, in this case, heat and oxygen can get to that foam and start the plastic burning. The only way to make this shit “fire resistant”, if at all, is to install it flush to a surface with no air gap - which was not done. Failure to properly install a material can drop its fire resistance to zero. Which is what seems to have happened here. Just a nitpick (I don’t disagree on any of your points, including cost being a limiting factor, which always looks a worse choice in hindsight after an event like this). The cladding material used for this building was not a foam product - it’s foil-coated solid polyethylene (probably HDPE) - actually a denser source of very flammable fuel than many foams - behaves a little like candle wax in a fire. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013/63 "2017-06-20T15:47:50Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Here’s an article describing the rationale for this particular makeover. I intended to link to an article, but omitted to do so. Here it is. > **[1,500 Southampton homes to be transformed in £27m revamp](https://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/13764427.1_500_Southampton_homes_to_be_transformed_in___27m_revamp/)** > > MORE than 1,500 Southampton homes will be getting improvements as part of a major £27m scheme to slash energy use. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013/64 "2017-06-20T15:55:06Z")
And here’s a document describing the actual decisions of the council (in the refurbishment local to me, not the Grenfell case): > **[HRA%20Scheme%20Approval%20201516%20201617%20201718%20201819%2020192020.pdf](https://www.southampton.gov.uk/modernGov/documents/s25403/HRA%20Scheme%20Approval%20201516%20201617%20201718%20201819%2020192020.pdf)** > > 215.60 KB > [@](#): > > The alternative option of not undertaking the works identified would leave the Council’s > homes and surrounding areas in their present condition and would not accord with the > view expressed during the consultation process or with the Council’s policy of providing > homes that comply with the four agreed headings of: > Safe Wind and Weather Tight > Warm and Energy Efficient > Modern Facilities > Well Maintained Communal Facilities ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013/65 "2017-06-20T16:09:54Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Just a nitpick (I don’t disagree on any of your points, including cost being a limiting factor, which always looks a worse choice in hindsight after an event like this). > > The cladding material used for this building was not a foam product - it’s foil-coated solid polyethylene (probably HDPE) - actually a denser source of very flammable fuel than many foams - behaves a little like candle wax in a fire. No, that’s cool - I’ll be the first to admit my information here is not complete. Correction noted and thank you for the info. ---
**Author:** ![vulcanbb18](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e47774/32.png) [@vulcanbb18](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vulcanbb18)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013/66 "2017-06-21T01:51:59Z")
What really struck me about this fire is when I saw some footage that was posted online of when the fire was in progress from a resident who lived near the top of the tower, and is now presumed deceased ☹ That footage, with _sound_, wasn’t visually informative, but the sound was. Basically, silence apart from people calling out to each other. No fire alarm of any kind! Nothing! That boggles my mind. Here in Oz, any building of that sort (& much smaller) is required by law to have a very intrusive alarm system, with loud tones (with separate tones for warning and evacuate) as a minimum, and usually with a very loud voice-over as well, telling you what to do. As I understand it, the advice for the residents in the tower was to stay in their units in the event of fire, which I really can’t fathom. I think the nuisance factor of evacuating unnecessarily because someone set their toaster on fire is easily outweighed by potential disasters like this. How can it be there was no warning system…_at all???_ 😕:mad: cheers, ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013/67 "2017-06-21T04:04:33Z")
> [@vulcanbb18](#): > > As I understand it, the advice for the residents in the tower was to stay in their units in the event of fire, which I really can’t fathom. 99% of the time, fires in buildings like this are contained to a small area of the building, and hundreds of people clambering down the stairs just impedes firefighters and puts a lot of people closer to the fire than they need to be. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013/68 "2017-06-21T04:22:16Z")
I’m seeing some chatter online implying that the death toll is actually expected to be 500 or higher, and the press is censoring any efforts to report it. Is that true? ---
**Author:** ![Snnipe\_70E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@Snnipe\_70E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snnipe_70E)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013/69 "2017-06-21T04:23:34Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > 99% of the time, fires in buildings like this are contained to a small area of the building, and hundreds of people clambering down the stairs just impedes firefighters and puts a lot of people closer to the fire than they need to be. That is why properly designed high rise buildings with fire stairwells, Sprinklers, Alarms, and announcement systems do not use evacuation but use a relocation system. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013/70 "2017-06-21T04:30:41Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > I’m seeing some chatter online implying that the death toll is actually expected to be 500 or higher, and the press is censoring any efforts to report it. > > Is that true? There is this quaint notion that you don’t declare people dead until you have either a body or enough time/investigation to eliminate other possibilities, like having gone to live with relatives or friends in another location, or lying unconscious in a hospital bed. The official death toll means “we have this many bodies recovered at this point”. No one with any sense is pretending the official toll won’t go higher, but I for one find it refreshing that instead of speculation they’re sticking to confirmable facts. After sufficient time and investigation I have no doubt that in addition to recovered human remains some missing people will be declared dead, but why should they be declared dead before other possibilities have been eliminated? The final death toll is coming, and it will be higher than it is today. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013/71 "2017-06-21T05:45:43Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > I’m seeing some chatter online implying that the death toll is actually expected to be 500 or higher, and the press is censoring any efforts to report it. What for? The western democratic capitalist press has no motivation whatsoever to censor the death toll. If it bleeds, it leads. A repressive government may try and cover up the facts, but this is the UK, not China. Everywhere I’ve read says there are 58 persons “missing, presumed dead” in addition to 30 confirmed fatalities. That’s a depressingly high body count, but nowhere near 500. ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013/72 "2017-06-21T10:33:30Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > 99% of the time, fires in buildings like this are contained to a small area of the building, and hundreds of people clambering down the stairs just impedes firefighters and puts a lot of people closer to the fire than they need to be. This is the most stunning attitude towards fire safety that’s been revealed in my opinion. Why on earth isn’t the discussion about fire escapes? I mean, has anyone in NAmerica been in ANY building without numerous, well lit, properly vented, clearly marked, sufficient in number (to provide safe exit for all those inside), fire escapes, in the last 40 yrs? The thinking that the sole exit should be kept clear for fire fighters, while people die stuck in the building is beyond bewildering. It’s shocking that smoke detectors, fire alarms, proper length fire hoses, sprinkler systems could be considered non essential due to cost, to be sure. But to couple a lack of those with a lack of fire exits seems beyond foolish. Britain would have been wiser to have kept pace with the rest of the first world on fire safety, instead of falling so, so far behind due to stinginess. Because the costs to catch up now will be far more, I think. Compromising fire safety, for any reason is flat out not acceptable here. Any attempt to do so would be roundly shot down, it just would not be allowed. And criminal charges would surely follow should failure to fully meet the code be revealed following a fire. That those who made these bad decisions are fully protected from liability seems criminal to me. Both this fiasco and what I’ve been reading about the proposed dementia tax, have shifted my opinion, that my country and Britain share common values. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013/73 "2017-06-21T10:36:53Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > I’m seeing some chatter online implying that the death toll is actually expected to be 500 or higher, and the press is censoring any efforts to report it. > > Is that true? Unadulterated nonsense. Probably posted by the same people who believe that 9/11 was a government conspiracy and no one ever got to the moon. We know how many people have been officially declared dead and we know how many have been reported missing. That is where the official estimates of at least 79 fatalities come from. I read this in today’s paper: > [@](#): > > Firefighters had put out the initial fridge fire at Grenfell Tower and were leaving the building when the blaze suddenly flared up, it has emerged. > > Crews believed they had put out the fire at the London high-rise and were astonished to see flames rising up the side of the building, new reports have claimed. > > Shortly after dealing with the fridge fire early last Wednesday, firefighters were telling residents that it was out, BBC Panorama reported. > [Grenfell Tower firefighters put out fridge blaze 'and were just leaving when flats erupted in flames'](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/20/grenfell-tower-firefighters-put-fridge-blaze-just-leaving-flats/) ---
**Author:** ![Staggerlee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/staggerlee/32/3134_2.png) [@Staggerlee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Staggerlee)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013/74 "2017-06-21T11:16:28Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > Both this fiasco and what I’ve been reading about the proposed dementia tax, have shifted my opinion, that my country and Britain share common values. You love ice hockey, we love innocent civilian deaths - did no-one tell you? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013/75 "2017-06-21T16:40:21Z")
The ‘dementia tax’ controversy has been quitely dropped from the legislative programme. It was bit of a political gaff by the prime minister that contributed to her parties poor performance in the recent election.:o ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013/76 "2017-06-21T18:07:40Z")
It is nice to see a politician apologize for a failure by the state. Whether money will be found to re-clad all vulnerable towers and install sprinkler systems, that remains to be seen. [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-theresa-may-apology-response-government-failure-state-latest-news-a7801246.html](http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-theresa-may-apology-response-government-failure-state-latest-news-a7801246.html) ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013/77 "2017-06-21T18:11:35Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > I’m seeing some chatter online implying that the death toll is actually expected to be 500 or higher, and the press is censoring any efforts to report it. > > Is that true? Do a simple sanity check on such claims. How many apartments were there in the building? How many dead people would there need to be in each apartment for that sort of figure to be even remotely likely? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013/78 "2017-06-21T18:58:25Z")
For those playing at home, there were 120 flats/200 bedrooms in Grenfell Tower, so the largest plausible number of occupants is around 400. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2017, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013/79 "2017-06-21T19:50:06Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > 99% of the time, fires in buildings like this are contained to a small area of the building, and hundreds of people clambering down the stairs just impedes firefighters and puts a lot of people closer to the fire than they need to be. There was what, 5-600 people living in this 24 story building? If an alarm sounded, & everyone got up & started evacuation procedures at the same time not everyone would hit the firetower door at the same time due to things like apartment distance from fire tower, how fast one can ambulate, taking time to get the little ones, taking time to put on more clothes than what some sleep in. They would also be entering the fire tower at multiple entry points (each floor). The fire dept needs time to be dispatched, arrive, size up the situation, organize & assign people to various duties. If a chief’s vehicle arrives first, some of that will be occurring while the fire apparatus is still enroute. When they arrive they don’t just run around like the Keystone Kops (to mix a metaphor) & run for the building as soon as the truck stops. All the while, people are exiting the building, meaning there aren’t so many people in the fire tower when the firemen start to go up it. Even a couple hundred people spread out over, say, 12 stories is one person every stair/couple of stairs. Residents come down on the outside, firemen go up on the inside & there should not be any issues with clogged stairwells. ---
**Author:** ![vulcanbb18](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e47774/32.png) [@vulcanbb18](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vulcanbb18)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2017, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013/80 "2017-06-22T01:01:15Z")
I have to agree with Spiderman here. And even _if_ the stairwell is choked with residents leaving, preventing firefighters from entering, you still get the vast majority of people to safety, and then send in firefighters to look for those who need assistance & start fighting the fire. If the building gets destroyed because of that small delay before they can really fight the fire…who cares? At least the people were saved. Asking people to stay in their units near the top of building, all the while them having no idea of how serious things really were (because no audible warning systems), WAS just a disaster waiting to happen. It’s tragic it took so many deaths to really highlight it. I really hope things change now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-rise-fire-london/789013.md?page=5)