# High school band forced to return shirts referencing evolution
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-band-forced-to-return-shirts-referencing-evolution/508451
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [September 1, 2009, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-band-forced-to-return-shirts-referencing-evolution/508451 "2009-09-01T04:34:06Z")
**Posts on this page:** 18
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2009, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-band-forced-to-return-shirts-referencing-evolution/508451/41 "2009-09-02T03:42:21Z")
Replace the school name with Bold as Brass and print the shirts again for resale. That should cover the cost of the banned shirts. Let the audience speak for the band.
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### Author:  [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Face_Intentionally_Left_Blank)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2009, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-band-forced-to-return-shirts-referencing-evolution/508451/42 "2009-09-02T03:51:12Z")
> [@Oakminster](#):
>
> That quote just jumped off the page at me. Ouch. The stupid, it burns.
With more context, it gets worse.
> [@](#):
>
> **Band parent Sherry Melby, who is a teacher in the district** , stands behind Pollitt’s decision. Melby said she associated the image on the T-shirt with Charles Darwin’s theory of evolution.
>
> \*\*
> “I was disappointed with the image on the shirt.” Melby said. “I don’t think evolution should be associated with our school.\*\*”
That’s right. She’s also a teacher.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2009, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-band-forced-to-return-shirts-referencing-evolution/508451/43 "2009-09-02T05:27:23Z")
> [@Face\_Intentionally\_Left\_Blank](#):
>
> With more context, it gets worse.
> That’s right. She’s also a teacher.
Any responsible parent should object to her employment.
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### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2009, 11:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-band-forced-to-return-shirts-referencing-evolution/508451/44 "2009-09-02T11:27:51Z")
> [@suranyi](#):
>
> They are certainly idiots. But you know, I’ve come to realize that this one problem with the Internet – now one goofball school out in nowheresville does something ridiculous, and all of us are up in arms! Is it really that important? I’ve decided that for me, the answer is no.
Is it just one goofball school? If so, you might have a point. The fact is, it is not. It is part of a pattern and a movement. For that reason, I regard it as much more than some sort of amusing diversion, and I see great value in tracking, discussing, and shining a bright light on these incidents.
People generally don’t get fired up when they hear of some cult enforcing odd religious beliefs in a compound somewhere. It’s much more significant when our public schools repeatedly have incidents in which they are enforcing odd religious beliefs upon students.
Your argument sounds like what is growing to be a common conservative counterargument: “This is just one isolated incident. Disregard it.” It isn’t, and we shouldn’t.
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### Author:  [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2009, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-band-forced-to-return-shirts-referencing-evolution/508451/45 "2009-09-02T12:42:22Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#):
>
> Your argument sounds like what is growing to be a common conservative counterargument: “This is just one isolated incident. Disregard it.” It isn’t, and we shouldn’t.
Oh, get down off the cross. We can use the wood.
Regards,
Shodan
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### Author:  [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2009, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-band-forced-to-return-shirts-referencing-evolution/508451/46 "2009-09-02T13:07:07Z")
In my neck of the woods, a bunch of kids have been sent home from school in the last week for wearing T-shirts that say “Islam is of the Devil”. (The kids and their parents go to a church which has been causing a commotion recently for having that phrase on a sign on the church lawn). I think it’s terrific that the kids aren’t allowed to wear those shirts because they are disruptive at school.
When I see this story about the band T-shirts, I think the people who are upset are morons. On the other hand, shouldn’t I agree with them that the shirts should not be worn because they are disruptive?
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### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2009, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-band-forced-to-return-shirts-referencing-evolution/508451/47 "2009-09-02T13:08:14Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> Oh, get down off the cross. We can use the wood.
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
I don’t follow your point. You may have misunderstood, since I am making no claims of persecution. I’m merely pointing out what I see as a continuingly common counterargument, and that is the insistence that any given example of a particular concern can be dismissed as an isolated matter.
In this particular case, without doing any research, I can recall instances of textbooks being required to have stickers downplaying the role of or evidence for evolution. I can recall school boards pushing religious agendas in the form of intelligent design.
This isn’t one school that we should forget about.
Now, please clarify your argument.
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### Author:  [@EvilTOJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EvilTOJ)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2009, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-band-forced-to-return-shirts-referencing-evolution/508451/48 "2009-09-02T13:25:57Z")
As someone who’s been involved in the public school system since childhood, I’ve found that when it comes to school administrators, it’s the closest we will ever get to a totalitarian dictatorship in this country. This is especially true when Zero Tolerance policies started becoming popular. Zero Tolerance meaning Zero Brains, as well.
Plus everyone knows primitive man plays woodwind instruments.
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### Author:  [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-band-forced-to-return-shirts-referencing-evolution/508451/49 "2009-09-02T15:59:40Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#):
>
> Or entertaining ourselves with their stupidity. Sometimes it really has more to do with the “watching the train wreck and pointing and laughing” value than fighting ignorance.
I can see that for most of us. But \*\*Der Trihs \*\* is always so uptight, it’s like he doesn’t know when to relax.
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### Author:  [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-band-forced-to-return-shirts-referencing-evolution/508451/50 "2009-09-02T16:04:47Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#):
>
> Is it just one goofball school? If so, you might have a point. The fact is, it is not. It is part of a pattern and a movement. For that reason, I regard it as much more than some sort of amusing diversion, and I see great value in tracking, discussing, and shining a bright light on these incidents.
>
> People generally don’t get fired up when they hear of some cult enforcing odd religious beliefs in a compound somewhere. It’s much more significant when our public schools repeatedly have incidents in which they are enforcing odd religious beliefs upon students.
>
> Your argument sounds like what is growing to be a common conservative counterargument: “This is just one isolated incident. Disregard it.” It isn’t, and we shouldn’t.
I’m no conservative. It’s just that if I spent all my time looking for things to make me mad, in every tiny little hamlet in the world, I’m sure I could find them. So why bother?
While it might be part of a pattern and a movement I guess I disagree that it is anything serious.
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### Author:  [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-band-forced-to-return-shirts-referencing-evolution/508451/51 "2009-09-02T16:48:48Z")
> [@suranyi](#):
>
> I’m no conservative. It’s just that if I spent all my time looking for things to make me mad, in every tiny little hamlet in the world, I’m sure I could find them. So why bother?
>
> While it might be part of a pattern and a movement I guess I disagree that it is anything serious.
That is of course your right. I just hope you are not surprised that others are very concerned about a pattern of American publics schools actively fighting against science.
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### Author:  [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)
#### Post date: [September 2, 2009, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-band-forced-to-return-shirts-referencing-evolution/508451/52 "2009-09-02T17:47:38Z")
I had two issues with the image on the shirts. First, I couldn’t make out anything that really conveyed the message of the instruments themselves evolving.
Second, it really looked more like an image I’d see in a magazine ad for a particular brand of brass instruments.
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### Author:  [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)
#### Post date: [September 3, 2009, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-band-forced-to-return-shirts-referencing-evolution/508451/53 "2009-09-03T23:19:21Z")
I thought the T-shirt itself sucked – there’s a good idea in there somewhere, maybe, but between the busy background, the poor execution, and the vague concept (what the hell does “Brass Evolutions” mean, and what sort of songs would be in such a program?) the T-shirt is a poor standard-bearer for the debate between religious freedom and academic rigor. It wasn’t intended to be that, of course, but it’s a little embarrassing, like building a huge “right to free speech” case around a kid telling a sex joke in class.
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### Author:  [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-band-forced-to-return-shirts-referencing-evolution/508451/54 "2009-09-04T03:44:35Z")
> [@Nametag](#):
>
> I thought the T-shirt itself sucked – there’s a good idea in there somewhere, maybe, but between the busy background, the poor execution, and the vague concept (what the hell does “Brass Evolutions” mean, and what sort of songs would be in such a program?) the T-shirt is a poor standard-bearer for the debate between religious freedom and academic rigor. It wasn’t intended to be that, of course, but it’s a little embarrassing, like building a huge “right to free speech” case around a kid telling a sex joke in class.
Or, perhaps about a [“Bong Hits 4 Jesus”](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_v._Frederick) banner.
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### Author:  [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2009, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-band-forced-to-return-shirts-referencing-evolution/508451/55 "2009-09-04T05:53:20Z")
> [@](#):
>
> **Dung Beetle** : On the other hand, shouldn’t I agree with them that the shirts should not be worn because they are disruptive?
What did they disrupt? It has to be something that relates directly to the learning environment of the students. A shirt would have had to disrupt a class, for example. And it can’t just be a matter of a principal thinks that the shirt _might_ disrupt a class. There has to be evidence that it would disrupt.
People have been ignoring this SCOTUS law for about forty years now.
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### Author:  [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2009, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-band-forced-to-return-shirts-referencing-evolution/508451/56 "2009-09-04T07:17:18Z")
This isn’t “remaining neutral where religion is concerned.” it’s bending over backwards and pretending those ignorant of Science–not to mention devoid of a sense of humor–have a valid understanding of a scientific issue.
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### Author:  [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2009, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-band-forced-to-return-shirts-referencing-evolution/508451/57 "2009-09-04T09:10:26Z")
> [@Nametag](#):
>
> I thought the T-shirt itself sucked – there’s a good idea in there somewhere, maybe, but between the busy background, the poor execution, and the vague concept (what the hell does “Brass Evolutions” mean, and what sort of songs would be in such a program?) the T-shirt is a poor standard-bearer for the debate between religious freedom and academic rigor. It wasn’t intended to be that, of course, but it’s a little embarrassing, like building a huge “right to free speech” case around a kid telling a sex joke in class.
I agree that the image is too busy but it was supposed to show the evolution of brass instruments. You would have to look closely at the picture and be able to identify the changes. Clever idea morphing it to the evolution picture but it doesn’t work.
On the other hand, The nature of the objection just begs for a response from the students.
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### Author:  [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)
#### Post date: [September 4, 2009, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-band-forced-to-return-shirts-referencing-evolution/508451/58 "2009-09-04T12:14:23Z")
> [@Zoe](#):
>
> What did they disrupt? It has to be something that relates directly to the learning environment of the students.
Yeah, this isn’t a really good example. I don’t see that any students were upset, just their parents.
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