High school football coach has players baptised

[begbert2]

@treis

If it were such a crappy argument then you should have no problem providing a response to it instead of attacking me.

It WAS a response to the argument, and not an attack on you. Try to keep up, will you?
You: “People who don’t like us indoctrinating their children can stuff it, because we outnumber them!”

Me: “You’re religious, aren’t you? :dubious:” (implication - that the ‘argument’ is obviously garbage if you’re not)

You: “So?”

Me: “So I don’t care much for when the majority tries to beat people over the head with their majority status.” (This might be an attack on you, but it’s also an attack on your argument - you are arguing for tyranny of the majority.)

You: “You’re attacking me and not my argument.”

Me: (Long explanation of how I’m attacking your craptacular argument)

You: “If my argument is so craptacular why are you attacking me and not my argument, eh?”
As I said in my long explanation, I don’t give a shit who you are - besides to note that your argument is the majority dismissing and insulting the dissenting minority. And when the majority is dismissing and insulting the dissenting minority, it’s craptacular argument, no matter who is saying it.

@treis

Again, it’s not a matter of what I like. It’s a matter of harm. There is easily provable objective harm to teenage drinking. There is none of that for listening to a preacher or getting baptised. I don’t think anyone should be coerced to doing the second, but it’s hardly comparable to teenagers drinking.

Pick the answer you prefer:

1. Religion is mind-altering and addictive, and besides that also destroys all that it touches, causes wars and plague, yaddah yaddah yaddah…

2. I don’t give a damn why you prefer religion over drinking - in either case it’s a mainstream activity that a coach shouldn’t be bussing their kids to, which is all that matters to the argument.

I’m betting you pick 1.

@treis

I find it interesting that you can tell me what I like and don’t like without knowing the first thing about me. Regardless, the point is that there doesn’t appear to be any harm to anyone here. There isn’t any evidence of coercion or consequences for not attending the service. It was wrong, unconstitutional, but just not a big deal.

You are blowing off the concerns of the minority group. ‘You don’t want us brainwashing your children? You think that’s harm? I don’t think so, and I outnumber you, so I’m right. Nyah nyah.’

This does tell me something about you. 1) you think religion isn’t harmful - ergo, you’re certainly no militant atheist. 2) You don’t give a shit what anyone else thinks on the matter, even parents regarding their children.

That’s all I know, and frankly, it’s all I need to know. It’s not me making stuff up. It’s you saying it.

[Voyager]

@Sinaijon

Feel what way?

That there is no reason to involve the parents. I don’t mean to be snarky - if a 17 year old wants to drive off to be baptized, it is fine with me without involving parents. (Assuming there is nothing contractual.) My issue here is the involvement of a teacher.

[whiterabbit]

And not just any teacher, Voyager, the high school football coach. I believe in some places such coaches rank just below Jesus in general importance in the school and the whole community. That makes this even weirder than a regular teacher taking them to a church, and quite possibly worse. I have to wonder just how voluntary this trip was, or how much “if I don’t go I get cut from the team and I get shunned and accused of being a godless heathen” was implied on the part of the coach.

[Bryan_Ekers]

@Voyager

Not if you are Jewish it isn’t.

I am and it’s not, unless popes get involved or something.

[Hentor_the_Barbarian]

If you don’t think a suggestion from a coach is coercive, you’ve never been near a sports team of any kind.

[adhay]

@Snowboarder_Bo

Story here.

Now, this strikes me as definitely not completely voluntary, nor completely legal.

Underage children are not legally responsible adults, and as such, the range of things they can do “voluntarily” is limited. Also, they were in custody of someone who has a position of authority over them, and can reward or punish their actions, so IMO there is a subtle coercive element as well.

My take: wrong, wrong, wrong. The coach, the superintendent, nearly every adult involved should be reprimanded, prolly fired.

@DanBlather

After reading the wholw article, this does not bother me as much as some other cases. Assuming it was done outside school hours, and the coach rented the bus like any other organization not-affiliated with the school would do, and he didn’t talk to the students about it during school-sponsored events, it seems at least plausibly legal. In the end it comes down to manners. Someone with a well developed sense of ettiquite would probably look at this and say “you know, doing this as a team is probably divisive, and not respectful to students who don’t want to participate and to the parents in general”.

I’m going with Dan.

[begbert2]

@adhay

I’m going with Dan.

Lotta ‘ifs’ in Dan’s post though - and Bayard pointed out above that the coach can’t have rented the bus, according to the school policy.

[adhay]

@begbert2

Lotta ‘ifs’ in Dan’s post though - and Bayard pointed out above that the coach can’t have rented the bus, according to the school policy.

Now what?

Just my conciliatory bias showing. I know admitting bias is a no-no in GD and I stand corrected.

[Magiver]

@Snowboarder_Bo

Now, this strikes me as definitely not completely voluntary, nor completely legal.

Voluntary yes, legal yes.

@Snowboarder_Bo

Underage children are not legally responsible adults, and as such, the range of things they can do “voluntarily” is limited.

There is no law regulating a legal age of consent for Baptism. It’s on par with the purchase of a hamburger.

@Snowboarder_Bo

Also, they were in custody of someone who has a position of authority over them, and can reward or punish their actions, so IMO there is a subtle coercive element as well.

Possibly, but that was not an objection.

@Snowboarder_Bo

My take: wrong, wrong, wrong. The coach, the superintendent, nearly every adult involved should be reprimanded, prolly fired.

What is wrong is that the coach did not pay for the use of the school bus and no mention of liability was discussed. If he had rented the bus, and insured the event then it would be a private affair.

He also did not have written parental consent to wander off with their children on a non-school function.

In addition, the school Superintendent was present. SOOOO. What we have here is the use of school equipment for non-school use, which means it was not insured. The Superintendent put the school in financial jeopardy and should be fired. By using school equipment without charging for it, it was not a private function and therefore the event was sanctioned by the school. Since it was a religious event, the Superintendant should have been subject to legal sanctions.

Had the coach rented the bus, provided the appropriate level of insurance, and procured proper permission from the parents then you would have a legally sanctioned event. The skeevy nature of it was legal but it puts the school in a position of proving he doesn’t discriminate against students who think differently then the coach. That’s a moot point because he put the school and the children’s parents in financial jeopardy and he should be fired.

[Czarcasm]

So no permission slips were needed to take a group of students off property to get baptised, according to the school.
Does anyone know how this particular school handled the Obama speech?

[Defensive_Indifference]

@Czarcasm

So no permission slips were needed to take a group of students off property to get baptised, according to the school.
Does anyone know how this particular school handled the Obama speech?

According to this blog – and I have no way to confirm this – students at this school were required to opt in to the Obama speech, via a signed permission slip.

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Magiver

Voluntary yes, legal yes.

I disagree about the voluntary part, and am skeptical that it was entirely legal. I know the power that a high school football coach wields in some towns. And:

There is no law regulating a legal age of consent for Baptism. It’s on par with the purchase of a hamburger.

You misunderstood. I never said it was illegal to be baptized. The problem is that underage children cannot legally remand themselves into another adult’s custody, which is what seems to have happened here, at least to some degree.

What is wrong is that the coach did not pay for the use of the school bus and no mention of liability was discussed. If he had rented the bus, and insured the event then it would be a private affair.

He also did not have written parental consent to wander off with their children on a non-school function.

In addition, the school Superintendent was present. SOOOO. What we have here is the use of school equipment for non-school use, which means it was not insured. The Superintendent put the school in financial jeopardy and should be fired. By using school equipment without charging for it, it was not a private function and therefore the event was sanctioned by the school. Since it was a religious event, the Superintendant should have been subject to legal sanctions.

Had the coach rented the bus, provided the appropriate level of insurance, and procured proper permission from the parents then you would have a legally sanctioned event. The skeevy nature of it was legal but it puts the school in a position of proving he doesn’t discriminate against students who think differently then the coach. That’s a moot point because he put the school and the children’s parents in financial jeopardy and he should be fired.

The rest of this, astonishingly, I whole heartedly agree with.

[Horatio_Hellpop]

I’m generally against Witnessing in schools–the students aren’t there because they choose to be, but because they will be punished if they don’t go.

Football teams are a little different. Every kid there is on the team because he passionately wants to be, and because he competed to be. And every football team is a cult of the coach’s personality.

I don’t want to endorse the guy’s actions, but coaches don’t have exactly the same relationship to their players as teachers do to students. (When Len Bias died, everyone looked at his coach as the guy who should’ve prevented this, not his parents or his English professor.) If the choral director had brought students to, say, a Black Baptist service like the one in The Blues Brothers, would our collective hackles be up so much? Can Drama departments still do Godspell? My Art teacher brought me to a seance once and I turned out okay!

[Snowboarder_Bo]

@Krokodil

I’m generally against Witnessing in schools–the students aren’t there because they choose to be, but because they will be punished if they don’t go.

Football teams are a little different. Every kid there is on the team because he passionately wants to be, and because he competed to be. And every football team is a cult of the coach’s personality.

I don’t want to endorse the guy’s actions, but coaches don’t have exactly the same relationship to their players as teachers do to students. (When Len Bias died, everyone looked at his coach as the guy who should’ve prevented this, not his parents or his English professor.) If the choral director had brought students to, say, a Black Baptist service like the one in The Blues Brothers, would our collective hackles be up so much? Can Drama departments still do Godspell? My Art teacher brought me to a seance once and I turned out okay!

I think it would be easy, and rational, to make a distinction between attending an event to study the content and attending an event to participate.

[ralph124c]

Exactly what is the connection between fundamentalist Christianity and football? Is it the “Jesus as warrior” image? Frankly, praying for victory in a HS football game strikes me as weird-especially as football is such a violent sport.
WWJD? I’d bet he’s play soccer instead!

[RTFirefly]

@Krokodil

If the choral director had brought students to, say, a Black Baptist service like the one in The Blues Brothers, would our collective hackles be up so much? Can Drama departments still do Godspell?

There’d certainly be a clear pedagogical reason for the choral director to take students to such a service. Damned if I can see a clear football reason for the football coach to take his players to the revival. And there’s not going to be an altar call at the end of a performance of Godspell; it’s a performance, not a worship activity.

[Odesio]

When I played football in Texas there was some pressure from other students to join the Fellowship of Christian Athletes. FCA club members had access to my telephone number and would call me every year to get me to join. I tried telling them I was Jewish (I’m not) to get them to leave me alone but I was told I didn’t have to be a Christian to join.

I was never singled out for harassment by the teammates who were in the FCA, the coaches, or anyone else for not being a member, but, still, there was peer pressure to join.

Odesio

[Zoe]

You mean that socialist that’s trying to twist the minds of our innocent children so that he can get his Communist death policy through Congress and have Sarah Palin shoot me from a helicopter?

[Monty]

And now Alabama joins the illegal party. WTF is so hard to understamd about SOCAS?

[Urbanredneck]

@Snowboarder_Bo

Underage children are not legally responsible adults, and as such, the range of things they can do “voluntarily” is limited. .

Yet, if they say they are transgender and as such, and should start transitioning by starting hormonal treatment which can really screw up their bodies, well that’s ok.

Some parents start as young as age 5 because “the kid wanted it”.

THIS group says kids know by 18 months.