# High School Student "Free Speech" Case Before SCOTUS **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 28, 2021, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931 "2021-04-28T15:07:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/81 "2021-04-28T19:51:29Z")
Aye; I gotta disagree that this was clearly private speech. If for the 2 hours or 2 days or whatever time limit Instachat leave things up, anyone could access it, it isn’t private IMO. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/82 "2021-04-28T19:51:34Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > Being too close to being forced isn’t the same as being forced. Nobody has a right to be in cheer and the state doesn’t have an obligation to provide cheer to students. What if the state responds to a negative decision with a law that it does not have an obligation to provide education to students? No mandatory school laws. Would that make it different? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/83 "2021-04-28T19:51:38Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > If a student wants to post "Fuck [my high school] every day after school, I totally support that right. But if a voluntary team says “we don’t want someone that angry and divisive on our team”, I think that’s okay too. Just the ‘every day’ part by itself pushes this into new territory. The behavior can become harassment if repeated often enough. What teams choose to do is a complex subject. It’s not an issue of a voluntary team, it’s a school sponsored team, it is the school that actually makes the decisions. I think they should have rules and processes that would allow them to deal with disruptive team members fairly. But keep in mind that the social media network creates numerous problems in doing so. We don’t know how many other students recorded similar expressions of frustration that didn’t get repeated. And one expression does not become harassment just because others repeat it numerous times. At least not harassment by the person who made the original statement. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/84 "2021-04-28T19:53:01Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I think it’s worth keeping in mind that she’s not asking SCOTUS for anything. She won her court cases already, repeatedly. It’s the school that’s asking SCOTUS to make a decision here, not the student. From SCOTUSblog, linked in the OP: _In her brief on the merits, Levy urges the court to draw a bright line between speech that occurs “at school” – on school grounds or at school events, and while students are going to and from school — and speech that does not._ She’s won every time so far, and she’ll probably win here. But she won’t get the bright line. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/85 "2021-04-28T19:57:13Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > think this is an excellent thread and debate, but I just wanted to pick this one out. How far do we go with the “private” thing? If I have 500 Facebook friends and post something was that just a “private” communication between us? And if one of the 500 rats me out, then no harm? What about 10 or 100 or 50? Social media, IMHO, is never private. I’m glad you came to me because I have all the answers. Wait just a minute, Snowboarder\_Bo just posted something about Instachat, which I know nothing about. Huh, it really isn’t private? I just might have to revise my opinion! Honestly, I have mixed feelings in regards to social media and the consequences of participation can have on things like employment and education. It wasn’t so many years ago that a college student lost her NASA internship over things she posted online. > [@UltraVires](#): > > What if the state responds to a negative decision with a law that it does not have an obligation to provide education to students? No mandatory school laws. Would that make it different? I’d probably just laugh at such a response as it’s likely the state has something in their own constitutional about education. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/86 "2021-04-28T20:33:04Z")
Legally and practically, you NEVER have a reasonable expectation of privacy on social media. But that doesn’t mean that in deciding how to handle cases like this we can’t draw a distinction between speech that was intended to be widely disseminated and that which wasn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/87 "2021-04-28T20:36:01Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > What if the state responds to a negative decision with a law that it does not have an obligation to provide education to students? No mandatory school laws. Would that make it different? Then you’re talking about a private school, which has the right to expel a student for saying “fuck.” ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/88 "2021-04-28T20:40:42Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Do you have to have a reason to kick a kid off a team? I have multiple friends who were high school basketball coaches. The fury of a woman scorned has nothing on parents of kids cut from the basketball team. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/89 "2021-04-28T20:52:32Z")
Sure, but do they have a court case? I teach high school. I am familiar with the stakes. But I never saw a lawsuit. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/90 "2021-04-28T20:55:29Z")
Good question. I don’t recall one but it was a while ago. At one point they tried to mollify the parents by accepting everyone but then parents complained that their kid didn’t play enough (or at all). Then there was the whole problem of V vs. JV. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/91 "2021-04-28T21:23:43Z")
I guess at a base level, not a legal argument at all, I am upset with the parents. A 14 year old doesn’t make the varsity squad. You tried hard, but maybe next year. But you post an obscene picture and use profanity on social media? Grounded. And learn how to deal with losing. But these parents hire a fucking lawyer and sue the school. I have a problem with that…again, not on a legal level, but a parenting one. Who thinks it is okay for a 14 year old to say “fuck” in the first place? Not me. Who thinks it is okay for a 14 year old to show the middle finger? Not me. That is the time in life where you teach them to express their disappointment in other ways. Have you ever seen a picture of someone giving the finger without thinking that they were a stupid asshole? Me neither. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/92 "2021-04-28T21:31:51Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I guess at a base level, not a legal argument at all, I am upset with the parents. A 14 year old doesn’t make the varsity squad. You tried hard, but maybe next year. But you post an obscene picture and use profanity on social media? Grounded. And learn how to deal with losing. Maybe she _was_ grounded. (And some of us are not offended when a 14 year old says “fuck.”) But I do agree with you that getting kicked off the cheer-leading squad seems like a crazy thing to sue about. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/93 "2021-04-28T21:35:18Z")
I certainly said “fuck” all the time when I was 14, as did all my friends. I was also familiar with the finger gesture in question. If this happened to my kid, I would think the coach was being a total jerk and grossly overreacting, and I certainly wouldn’t give her any additional punishment. But yeah, the thought of lawyering up would never have come close to crossing my mind. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/94 "2021-04-28T21:38:40Z")
And to go further with the idea, the parent, all would agree, would have the right to spank the child (I’m not saying you agree with spanking, but you agree that the parent does have the right/privilege under law to spank) and ground her and prohibit her from leaving her room except for school and to ban her from extra curricular activities. If that is so, then why doesn’t the state, with the higher power, that can terminate parental rights, do something far less and just suspend her from the team? The team it controls and regulates and makes rules for. It can’t spank the child (in most states because statutes have taken away that power, but not others). The state acts in parens patriae when your child is at school. Where have I gone astray in my analysis? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/95 "2021-04-28T21:42:21Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I certainly said “fuck” all the time when I was 14, as did all my friends. I was also familiar with the finger gesture in question. I Me too. Did you say it in front of your parents or teachers? I sure, well, as fuck didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/96 "2021-04-28T21:46:59Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Where have I gone astray in my analysis? There are lots of things that the state cannot do but non-state entities can. Censorship, for example - your first amendment right only protects you from GOVERNMENT censorship, anyone else can tell you to shut up/remove you from their platform for any reason. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/97 "2021-04-28T21:49:05Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Where have I gone astray in my analysis? The government has to act consistent iwth the Constitution. Parents don’t. Do you really think the school should be allowed force a student to remove a “Free Tibet” pin on their jacket? A very minor thing, and one that a parent can do. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/98 "2021-04-28T21:53:33Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Who thinks it is okay for a 14 year old to say “fuck” in the first place? Not me. Me. Also, my mom, who taught me some of my favorite curse words. > [@UltraVires](#): > > Have you ever seen a picture of someone giving the finger without thinking that they were a stupid asshole? Always been a big fan of this guy: ![image](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/0/0bc8ba2a1b65f1f407a34824f232df8dc78cd108.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/99 "2021-04-28T21:54:29Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Did you say it in front of your parents or teachers? The girl in question didn’t do it in front of her parents or teachers, either. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/100 "2021-04-28T22:01:01Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > The government has to act consistent iwth the Constitution. Parents don’t. Of course. That is the whole point of the case. Obviously the government can’t tell you to not support Trump/Biden, be a Democrat/Republican or be a Christian/any other but it can tell you not to tell its representatives to fuck off. That is what this case is about. So putting aside what parents can do that the government cannot, why can’t the government in acting in loco parentis , tell your child that she can get out because she is disrespectful? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931.md?page=6)