# High School Student "Free Speech" Case Before SCOTUS **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 28, 2021, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931 "2021-04-28T15:07:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/141 "2021-04-28T23:08:32Z")
What is the core Constitutional right you feel is at stake here? The right of high school coaches to never have anyone say anything mean about them, even under circumstances where they would be unlikely to ever hear about it? You’re gonna have to point out which clause of the Constitution covers that. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/142 "2021-04-28T23:10:09Z")
If she had submitted that statement in writing to the cheer coach, I would agree with that interpretation. But she didn’t. If I tell the guy on the next barstool that my boss is an asshole, that doesn’t constitute me resigning from my position. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/143 "2021-04-28T23:10:32Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > If her behavior outside causes concern about what her behavior on the team might be, does the school still have to allow her the opportunity to screw up on the team, given e.g. that a failure to respect coach’s instructions could result in injury to her _or her teammates_ ? No, if her behavior causes that sort of concern, then she shouldn’t be on the team. Does saying “Fuck cheer” rise to that level of concern? I say no. > [@slash2k](#): > > Look at page 12 of the Colorado PDF… Yeah, cool, but I don’t care? I’m not disputing that such rules exist, I’m saying I don’t know what the legal reasoning is that squares those rules with the first amendment protections on freedom of association. If the only reason is, “It’s disrespectful,” then I don’t agree that’s a sufficient reason to suspend someone’s civil rights. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/144 "2021-04-28T23:14:04Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > That’s not how things work. You have to show that this girl has the right to flip off her coach and say fuck before she gets coverage under the Free Speech Clause. That’s literally the opposite of how it works. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/145 "2021-04-28T23:14:56Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > A public school board is not “any organization” and students are not voluntary “members”. A public school board is a branch of government and students are there under compulsion of law. That analogy doesn’t work. Government agencies are required to comply with constitutional restrictions in ways that private organizations are not. > [@RitterSport](#): > > I think you have a stronger case for restricting the off-campus activities for students who consent to be there. Public school students don’t consent to be there – they must go to school. The law requires this girl to attend **a** school. It does not require her to attend **that** school. Her parents may prefer her to attend that school, or they may feel that they have no good alternative. But the legal requirement can be satisfied in multiple ways. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/146 "2021-04-28T23:15:21Z")
The heart of the school’s mission is being able to break the law and not be held accountable for it? What if a student files rape charges against a teacher? That’s certain to cause a controversy that will substantially disrupt school operations. Do you think the school has the right to discipline the student for filing those charges? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/147 "2021-04-28T23:18:15Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > If I tell the guy on the next barstool that my boss is an asshole, that doesn’t constitute me resigning from my position. True. But if you post it on Snapchat and then someone screencaps that and shows it to the boss, or if you speak it loud enough for _others in the bar to hear it_, you better hope the boss is a tolerant guy. But part of this is another important lesson for those involved: online media _are not per se private._ If it’s on the screen it can be a screencap… and then you’ve got 'splainin to do. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/148 "2021-04-28T23:20:09Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > I don’t think (could be wrong) anyone here has argued that the school didn’t have the right to throw her off the cheerleading squad… Yeah, you’re super wrong here. The specific question asked by this case is if the student getting kicked off the cheer team violated her constitutional rights. So far as I’m aware, she hasn’t faced any additional punishments from the school other than that. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/149 "2021-04-28T23:21:00Z")
As a constitutional issue, I would hold that off campus speech is only actionable by the school if they can show that it has an impact on in-school activities. Here, arguably, that might be the case - if it became a topic of conversation amongst the team, or if it eroded the coaches’ confidence in her commitment, then they should be able to kick her off the team. But I don’t think some general policy of policing student conduct 24/7 should be tolerable, and I don’t think the mere act of saying something that would be prohibited on school grounds should be disciplinable by the school, if said outside the confines of the school. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/150 "2021-04-28T23:24:45Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > True. But if you post it on Snapchat and then someone screencaps that and shows it to the boss, or if you speak it loud enough for _others in the bar to hear it_ , you better hope the boss is a tolerant guy. Sure. But, unless your boss is the government, there’s no constitutional issue with your boss firing you for saying mean things about him on your free time. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/151 "2021-04-28T23:30:30Z")
There have been a lot of tangents, discussion of related hypothetical cases like “what if they had suspended or expelled her?”, and discussion of whether the school’s actions were reasonable. But AFAICT nobody in this thread has taken the position that getting thrown off the cheerleading team was itself a violation of her Constitutional rights. Obviously some courts have taken that position, though, or we wouldn’t be talking about it. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/152 "2021-04-28T23:32:21Z")
Sure, your boss could fire you. But he couldn’t then get out of paying you unemployment based on the argument that your comment in the bar constituted you voluntarily quitting. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/153 "2021-04-28T23:41:32Z")
> [@Thing.Fish](#): > > There have been a lot of tangents, discussion of related hypothetical cases like “what if they had suspended or expelled her?” I… don’t think they have? The only use of the word “expel” or “expelled” in this thread was in your post, and I don’t recall anyone talking about her being suspended from anything other than the cheerleading team. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > AFAICT nobody in this thread has taken the position that getting thrown off the cheerleading team was itself a violation of her Constitutional rights. I’m very confused now. Was this not you, earlier in the thread? > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > My argument in her favor: She made her statement in a private conversation with friends outside of school hours and off school property. (well, of course nothing on the internet is really “private”, as this student has presumably learned from this experience, but her intention was not to utter public speech) It seems ridiculous to me to argue that this would rise to the level of “substantially disrupting school operations”, which is the threshold _Tinker v Des Moines_ says must be met in order to justify restricting student speech. It’s hard to imagine literally _any_ student speech that would be protected under this standard. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/154 "2021-04-28T23:44:02Z")
Yes, but if you read the whole post, I prefaced that part by saying it had been written under the false impression that she had been suspended. When I realized she had only been thrown off the team, my opinion changed. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/155 "2021-04-28T23:45:41Z")
Ah, right, sorry, I didn’t see that. Still, I’m pretty sure you’re the only one who was under that misimpression. I’ve certainly been arguing about her suspension from the cheerleading squad, specifically. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2021, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/156 "2021-04-29T00:24:29Z")
Aside, does anyone knwo who is fronting the legal bills of the school in this case? I highly doubt that any school district has enough money lying around to take a case all the way to the supreme court just to justify their decision to kick some bratty kid off their JV cheerleading team 4 years ago. I know the ACLU can take the girls side but what group is supporting the anti-free speech side. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2021, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/157 "2021-04-29T00:31:39Z")
Sidebar, please. What is the “Varsity squad” in this context? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2021, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/158 "2021-04-29T00:54:12Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > So the cheerleaders can never question or disagree with the coach, then? Of course they can. The question is whether or not there will be consequences if that disagreement includes the word ‘fuck’. This is an extracurricular, voluntary, enrichment activity made available to students, and one of the concepts, whether spoken, written or not, is that participants will be respectful of the staff, and not disruptive of the activity. Posting complaints to other participants is potentially disruptive, and suspending a disruptive person from a voluntary activity is a legitimate response. What she should be learning from this is not to post shit about your supervisor on the internet, because you can lose a hell of a lot more than your position on the JV cheer squad. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2021, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/159 "2021-04-29T01:03:40Z")
Large enough schools often divide their sports programs into varsity and junior varsity squads. The junior varsity squad is basically a training squad for freshmen and others who want to participate but aren’t good enough to be on the more competitive varsity squad. The varsity cheerleaders are the ones who show up at all the big football and basketball games, while the junior squad gets stuck with events like wrestling and swim meets. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2021, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931/160 "2021-04-29T01:06:15Z")
Thanks. Why “varsity”? What does that mean? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-student-free-speech-case-before-scotus/940931.md?page=9)