# High school students' 9/11 sweatshirts: offensive? harmless? newsworthy? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 6, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918 "2010-01-06T16:51:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/41 "2010-01-06T20:23:01Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > “Too soon” is not an idiomatic expression. It means exactly what it appears to mean. The way the phrase is used it connotes more than the literal meaning of those words in the context. I tried to get a direct flight but they said they had to stop at the Empire State Building First. [Too soon!]. Too soon for what? To get a direct flight? No, too soon to tell a joke about a recent tragedy without said joke being unavoidably perceived as in poor taste. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/42 "2010-01-06T20:24:10Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I made no such claim, and I’ll thank you not to misrepresent my posts. I made the claim that there’s no actual _evidence_ that the claimed reference is intentional. It might well be, but there are no quotes from the kids or their parents in the linked article to demonstrate it. A reference is per se intentional. Saying there is no reference is one in the same as saying they intended no reference. An apparent reference that was in reality unintentional would be a coincidence. Moreover, the graphic is actual evidence from which we can easily infer intent. Smoking guns are not the only forms of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/43 "2010-01-06T20:28:04Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > The graphic is actual evidence from which we can easily infer intent. Smoking guns are not the only forms of evidence. Except the graphic looks nothing like WTC, except to people who really want to be offended and scandalized by numbers containing windows, and a bird. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/44 "2010-01-06T20:28:20Z")
> [@](#): > > The graphic is actual evidence from which we can easily infer intent. Smoking guns are not the only forms of evidence. No, the graphic is some numbers with poorly drawn windows on them. In what way does it look like the World Trade Center? It’s the wrong shape, the windows are out of proportion by several orders of magnitude, and none of the details are there. Hell, they even left the serifs on. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/45 "2010-01-06T20:30:54Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Except the graphic looks nothing like WTC, except to people who really want to be offended and scandalized by numbers containing windows, and a bird. Really? It looks nothing like two equal heighted side by side towers? “Twin” towers if you will. Really? ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/46 "2010-01-06T20:32:32Z")
I think it’s fantastic. The fact that people are starting to use the imagery of 9/11 without all of the baggage shows that 9/11 is starting to recede into our history and hopefully soon it will be remembered along with Pearl Harbor. Besides that the design isn’t offensive to me and I could easily see myself wearing something similar when I was in high school to get a rise out of people. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/47 "2010-01-06T20:33:08Z")
Let’s see. Two tall buildings, the number 11, something flying at them, the motto “You can’t bring us down.” But since it’s not a photorealistic depiction, how do we know it has anything to do with 9/11? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/48 "2010-01-06T20:33:16Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > No, the graphic is some numbers with poorly drawn windows on them. In what way does it look like the World Trade Center? It’s the wrong shape, the windows are out of proportion by several orders of magnitude, and none of the details are there. > > Hell, they even left the serifs on. So, are you now clearly denying the reference? If so, how can my description of your position as being one of “that reference [the WTC] is not there” be a mischaracterization in light of this post? Please pick a side here. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/49 "2010-01-06T20:35:04Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > Let’s see. Two tall buildings, the number 11, something flying at them, the motto “You can’t bring us down.” But since it’s not a photorealistic depiction, how do we know it has anything to do with 9/11? :dubious: But the serifs! What about the serifs? Buildings don’t have serifs? (Never mind that numbers don’t have windows and Jesus doesn’t have wheels). ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/50 "2010-01-06T20:36:28Z")
I think it was either dumb, or ‘interesting’, to put themselves in that scene as a plane. In the actual historic event, the planes destroyed the towers. But they are kids, and don’t think things through, so it was probably just dumb. edit: OK, having seen the design, I think it was harmless. That’s not a picture of something happening, it’s just two symbolic depictions placed next to each other. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/51 "2010-01-06T20:39:01Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > Really? It looks nothing like two equal heighted side by side towers? “Twin” towers if you will. Really? I suppose it looks a little bit like two towers of equal height standing side by side. It also looks a little bit like two milk cartons of standing side by side. Or two dollhouses. Or two school buildings. Or… two arabic numerals representing the number _eleven._ ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/52 "2010-01-06T20:41:25Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Or… two arabic numerals representing the number _eleven._ With windows. Meaning they are not only representing the number eleven, but also two buildings. What two buildings are connected with the number eleven? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/53 "2010-01-06T20:42:25Z")
Yeah, call me crazy but I’m not going to expect really detailed symbolism from high schoolers. Hmm. I just clicked the link and looked at the picture of the design. I gotta say, that’s not a very blatant design. I mean, I can see the reference but if you just showed me the picture, I’d have to think about it for a moment. Ok, my vote goes down for dumbfucks getting all bent out of shape because there’s nothing good on tv or something similar. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/54 "2010-01-06T20:44:47Z")
> [@whole\_bean](#): > > Really? It looks nothing like two equal heighted side by side towers? “Twin” towers if you will. Really? Perhaps you do not know what the Twin Towers looked like. I will help you with that: [![](https://robertsravings.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/twin-towers.jpg) ](https://robertsravings.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/twin-towers.jpg) Not every two vaguely upright things things look like the Twin Towers. For xample, I would not say [this building](http://www.mikiemetric.com/Sample%20Scenes/TwinBuildings.jpg) or [this building](http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/RHPOD/737-379~Petronas-Twin-Towers-One-of-the-Tallest-Buildings-in-the-World-Kuala-Lumpur-Malaysia-Posters.jpg) or [this building](http://shanghai.urbanatomy.com/images/stories/Article-image200908/grand%20gateway.jpg) looks like anything like the twin towers. The TT had very characteristic features (itemized in my previous post, additionally you may be aware the TT were over 5 stories tall) which the graphic of the Number 11 does not share. Perhaps you think that every structure that comes in twos looks like the Twin Towers. If that is the case, we differ. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/55 "2010-01-06T20:46:38Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > With windows. Meaning they are not only representing the number eleven, but also two buildings. What two buildings are connected with the number eleven? [These](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petronas_Twin_Towers)? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/56 "2010-01-06T20:48:30Z")
> [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](#): > > [These](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petronas_Twin_Towers)? Did someone ever bring them down or attempt to bring them down? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/57 "2010-01-06T20:51:00Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > With windows. Meaning they are not only representing the number eleven, but also two buildings. What two buildings are connected with the number eleven? The number eleven is their graduation year. You understand that part, right? > [@](#): > > Did someone ever bring them down or attempt to bring them down? Has the word “us” ever referred to paired buildings? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/58 "2010-01-06T20:53:52Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The number eleven is their graduation year. You understand that part, right? And that’s why they figured it was relevant. “This happened on 9/11, we’re the class of 2011, but you’re never gonna bring _us_ down! Woo! Yeah!” You do realize it’s possible for one symbol to refer to multiple things, right? Political cartoons must be really confusing. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/59 "2010-01-06T20:56:50Z")
Apparently an eleven with some windows could only possibly ever refer to _one_ thing, though. Go figure. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2010, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/60 "2010-01-06T21:00:48Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Apparently an eleven with some windows could only possibly ever refer to _one_ thing, though. Go figure. :smack: > [@Bosstone](#): > > Two tall buildings, the number 11, something flying at them, the motto “You can’t bring us down.” That’s four (not one, not two, but four) elements that narrow it down pretty freaking well. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918.md?page=4)