# High school students' 9/11 sweatshirts: offensive? harmless? newsworthy? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 6, 2010, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918 "2010-01-06T16:51:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/121 "2010-01-08T19:03:23Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > This whole thing reminds me of “Bong Hits 4 Jesus.” Everyone is sure they know what it means – it’s obvious! – except no one can agree what it means. Basically its a cipher that reflects the viewer. I have no idea what it means. What is obvious is the 9/11 reference and a reference is per se intentional. ---
**Author:** ![Pray\_for\_peace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pray\_for\_peace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pray_for_peace)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/122 "2010-01-08T19:13:21Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > This whole thing reminds me of “Bong Hits 4 Jesus.” Everyone is sure they know what it means – it’s obvious! – except no one can agree what it means. Basically its a cipher that reflects the viewer. I disagree. In this case, the design on the shirts is an obvious reference to 9/11 - two tall buildings, the number 11, something flying at them, the motto “You can’t bring us down.” ETA: **whole bean** said it better. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/123 "2010-01-08T19:50:37Z")
> [@Sidney Evgeni Jordan](#): > > I disagree. In this case, the design on the shirts is an obvious reference to 9/11 - two tall buildings, . What tells you these buildings are tall? I mean, what visual cues in the drawings lead you to believe you are looking at 2 “tall” buildings? There are 5 layers of windows. Do you think a 5 story building is tall? How about a building about the size of 5 eagles stacked? Or is it something you decided to see, because you wanted to see it? ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/124 "2010-01-08T19:52:03Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > What tells you these buildings are tall? This is really getting ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Pray\_for\_peace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pray\_for\_peace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pray_for_peace)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/125 "2010-01-08T19:52:14Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > What tells you these buildings are tall? > > I mean, what visual cues in the drawings lead you to believe you are looking at 2 “tall” buildings? There are 5 layers of windows. Do you think a 5 story building is tall? How about a building about the size of 5 eagles stacked? > > Or is it something you decided to see, because you wanted to see it? Why did you cut off the sentence in the middle? ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/126 "2010-01-08T19:54:27Z")
> [@Sidney Evgeni Jordan](#): > > Why did you cut off the sentence in the middle? Because short buildings with something flying at them have no significance in relation to the number 11. ---
**Author:** ![Hello\_Again](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/85e7bf/32.png) [@Hello\_Again](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hello_Again)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/127 "2010-01-08T19:55:38Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > This is really getting ridiculous. Yes, we’ve established that the number 11 as shown does not have the merest visual reference to the Twin Towers. It is quite ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/128 "2010-01-08T20:12:28Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Yes, we’ve established that the number 11 as shown does not have the merest visual reference to the Twin Towers. It is quite ridiculous. “We” haven’t established anything of the sort. But it’s clearly no longer worth the time to try to persuade you otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Telcontar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3bc359/32.png) [@Telcontar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telcontar)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/129 "2010-01-08T20:15:01Z")
> [@Southern\_Yankee](#): > > 1. Not offended. > 2. The design clearly is meant to represent the towers. Anyone who denies that is being purposefully obtuse. > 3. I don’t see it as mockery in any way. I see it as kids using a symbol of catastrophic damage that happened in their lifetime as a way to say that they are young and strong and moving on with their futures, and that no one will stop them. Concur on all points. This dispute is really really silly. It all comes down to the implied meaning. Who is “you” and who is “us?” If GWB wore it, then “who” would be the terrorists and “us” would be the USA. Perfectly fine and acceptable. Maybe even inspirational. Do it in red, white, and blue and make a killing on cafe press. In fact, I think someone did. The motto looks familiar. Of course, if you assume that the students in question aren’t real Americans, then you might come to a different conclusion about what was meant. You might be right, for all I know, but it is still just a set of random assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/130 "2010-01-08T20:16:43Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Yes, we’ve established that the number 11 as shown does not have the merest visual reference to the Twin Towers. It is quite ridiculous. Yeah, who’s this “we?” ---
**Author:** ![Pray\_for\_peace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Pray\_for\_peace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pray_for_peace)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/131 "2010-01-08T20:18:35Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Yes, we’ve established that the number 11 as shown does not have the merest visual reference to the Twin Towers. It is quite ridiculous. No. To give you the benefit of the doubt, I guess it’s possible that you haven’t read the whole thread. Many posters have agreed that the reference to 9/11 is obvious. I’m not going to count how many posters have agreed the 9/11 reference is obvious, but you might want to. Look, it is the combination of elements in the composition that make the 9/11 reference obvious. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/132 "2010-01-08T20:22:15Z")
> [@conurepete](#): > > There were a few jerks who ran out and celebrated, you can find pictures if you care to google. I’d like you to google and show me the pictures of anyone celebrating on 9/11 in Dearborn. I worked for the local paper at the time of 9/11 and we made a very concerted and thorough effort to watch, document, investigate and report on ANYthing out of the ordinary taking place in Dearborn that day and the days afterward. I’m not saying the pics don’t exist, but if you know of them, I’d be interested in seeing them. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/133 "2010-01-08T20:37:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > See [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=546686). Take strong drink. Is there that same connotation in Australia with fried chicken and black people? I can completely accept that they’re looking at it through a US-centric lens, which has its own baggage and that the intended audience wouldn’t see it as such. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/134 "2010-01-08T20:44:04Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > I’d like you to google and show me the pictures of anyone celebrating on 9/11 in Dearborn. I worked for the local paper at the time of 9/11 and we made a very concerted and thorough effort to watch, document, investigate and report on ANYthing out of the ordinary taking place in Dearborn that day and the days afterward. > > I’m not saying the pics don’t exist, but if you know of them, I’d be interested in seeing them. I bet Debbie Schlussel is loving it. ---
**Author:** ![Push\_You\_Down](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/push_you_down/32/9095_2.png) [@Push\_You\_Down](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Push_You_Down)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/135 "2010-01-08T21:08:19Z")
that is an ugly as shit design. They needed to take a cue from Starbucks on how to reference it correctly and artisticly. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/136 "2010-01-08T21:22:52Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Because short buildings with something flying at them have no significance in relation to the number 11. By God, I think you’re right. It’s all so clear, now. This is no reference to 9/11, no. Clearly they are referencing the mythological Thunderbird’s crash into a serif’d low-rise. Or maybe that time a pidgeoon flew into the local merchant’s and farmer’s bank bulding. What were we thinking? ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2010, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/137 "2010-01-09T14:35:03Z")
Didn’t we already establish that every number 11 references the Twin Towers? Because they were two towers that stood near each other. And that’s what an 11 looks like. Therefore it is impossible for an 11 ever _not_ to represent the Twin Towers. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/138 "2010-01-11T08:58:24Z")
> [@Hello\_Again](#): > > Clicking the link, that 11 looked exactly like an eleven to me, and not at all like the WTC. The WTC had several visual characteristics, none of which were repeated in the 11: > -the long linear shape of the windows (the windows on the 11 are foursquare) > -the “belts” which were windowless support floors at 1/2 and 2/3 up (the windows are continuous) > -the plain rectangular shape. (the 11 is serifed top and bottom) > -the buildings were not side by side (the 1s of the 11 are side by side) > > Other than being 11s with windows (windows that look nothing like those on the WTC, and probably look a lot more like the windows of their high school), I cannot understand how you can connect this with 9/11, unless you’re the type of person that’s mad that muslims are allowed to go to high school freely. My vote too. They don’t look anything like the towers to me. My first thought was that they looked more like brick HS buildings. ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/139 "2010-01-11T09:12:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The “us” is the towers. The mascot was probably used as a plane just because it was a way to use a school symbol in the image. I doubt they put much thought into it. I think interpreting it as an intent to show approval for the 9/11 attacks is ridiculous. The “US” is meant to be “Us, The class of 11”. Didn’t anyone bother to read the last several sentences of the article the OP provided? Didn’t anyone have a sweatshirt with their graduation digits on it, such as '77, '01 and so on? "Schools spokesman David Mustonen said the students complied when they were asked to remove the sweatshirts, which they had made at Gibraltar Trade Center for $25 apiece over holiday break. “Kids not thinking, not realizing the consequences of something they thought was pretty innocent,” Mustonen said. "Their thought was, ‘You can’t bring us down. We’re the class of 2011.’ " Jennifer Browne, president of the Edsel Ford Parent Teacher Student Association, said she believes the students were simply trying to promote their class. “It’s unfortunate that it came across badly,” she said" Are some dopers saying that the kids were lying? ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2010, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918/140 "2010-01-11T10:01:35Z")
> [@CanvasShoes](#): > > Are some dopers saying that the kids were lying? Yes either that or they are so blissfully ignorant they should be held back a year for their own good. It is not just a fringe group of people that saw a connection between the shirts and the events of 9/11. Not a single one of the students involved had the foresight to recognize some people might find the shirt offensive? Sorry, if that is the case they are too stupid to let graduate in 2011. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-school-students-9-11-sweatshirts-offensive-harmless-newsworthy/523918.md?page=8)