# High stakes in SF/Fantasy stories **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [March 7, 2021, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-stakes-in-sf-fantasy-stories/937384 "2021-03-07T13:27:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Uniqueorn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uniqueorn/32/2807_2.png) [@Uniqueorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uniqueorn)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2021, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-stakes-in-sf-fantasy-stories/937384/1 "2021-03-07T13:27:54Z")
Having recently re-read Mike Carey’s Lucifer comic book series, where the endgame is about the survival of not just the whole of creation, but two creations (really, really cool concept), I was wondering if any of you could recommend SF/Fantasy stories that are massive in scale. Not just the survival of the kingdom, but the whole world, not just small battles between dozens of ships, but exploding suns, Gods fighting Gods, thousand-year battles and so on. (Hmm, Malazan Empire of the Fallen probably fits and was a really good series.) (I also should try to finally get Neil Patrick Harris’ “Make it bigger” out of my head…) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2021, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-stakes-in-sf-fantasy-stories/937384/2 "2021-03-07T13:32:10Z")
The Silmarillion comes to mind immediately. (J.R.R. Tolkien), The Lensmen Series by E.E. “Doc” Smith. Was a steadily increasing in scale war. The Foundation Series by Isaac Asimov qualifies. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2021, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-stakes-in-sf-fantasy-stories/937384/3 "2021-03-07T13:32:52Z")
_The Unreasoning Mask_, by Philip José Farmer. ---
**Author:** ![Oredigger77](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/oredigger77/32/3181_2.png) [@Oredigger77](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oredigger77)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2021, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-stakes-in-sf-fantasy-stories/937384/4 "2021-03-07T15:21:30Z")
I’m not sure if it’ll count but the Stormlight Archive by Brandon Sanderson kind of fits it. They are fighting a God who will destroy all of the multiveruses. Of course, the stakes aren’t really spelled out until book 4 and book 1 is all about a small scale war that doesn’t even engulf one of the countries fighting. On the other hand a major character just became a literal God so maybe… ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2021, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-stakes-in-sf-fantasy-stories/937384/5 "2021-03-07T15:50:20Z")
Roger Zelazny’s _Amber_ series, although it doesn’t really get cosmic until the fourth or fifth book. Robert Heinlein’s _Job: A Comedy of Justice_. Michael Moorcock’s _Stormbringer_, the last book in the Elric series. Patrick H. Adkins wrote several books in which the lead characters were Greek gods. _Lord of the Crooked Paths_ was the first in the series. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2021, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-stakes-in-sf-fantasy-stories/937384/6 "2021-03-07T16:52:03Z")
Armageddon Inheritance by David Weber, which is technically the middle book of three, but stands reasonable well on it’s own. I would honestly read the first book (Mutineer’s Moon) which is smaller in scope, but sets it up. The third book I wouldn’t bother with unless you’ve fallen in love with the characters and just want a bit more. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2021, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-stakes-in-sf-fantasy-stories/937384/7 "2021-03-07T17:05:39Z")
It’s a short story rather than an epic tale but I nominate [“The Nine Billion Names of God”](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Billion_Names_of_God) by Arthur C. Clarke. I’ll spoiler the last line just in case. > **Spoiler** > > …overhead, without any fuss, the stars were going out. ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2021, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-stakes-in-sf-fantasy-stories/937384/8 "2021-03-07T18:15:14Z")
Kind of the opposite of _The Final Question_ (Asimov) where, if memories from seventh grade are valid, the last line is (spoken by a computer since there are no humans left) “Let there be light.” … But I’ve got to say, I’ve lost patience with “this will mean the end of the universe” stories. So many SF stories, fantasy series, comic arcs, and Hot New Streaming Paranormal Super Teen Dramas feel like they need to show how important they are. The Big Bad Guy isn’t just evil, he’s About-To-Destroy-The-World-Nay-The-Universe evil. The dorky nerd doesn’t just discover he’s a hero, he’s The Only One Who Can Save The World. I started watching a cute story about a middle school loner who discovers she has a quirky power… but nope, we can’t keep it a story where she messes with school bullies and tries to keep her life together. We have to have a Big Baddy show up, then the Ancient Mentor who tells her that if she doesn’t “embrace her mysterious magical heritage”, then… you guessed it, the world will be destroyed. Cue cliché training sequences, big fight scenes that are mostly special effects, and cardboard characters. I tried to keep watching, but sadly, I just couldn’t. Sigh… sometimes it’s just lazy writing. I mean, if you’re not clear on what your antagonist’s motivation is, it’s too easy to say “Well, he wants to take over the world” or "destroy the earth, the galaxy, no, the whole universe… oh, wait, I know… the _multiverse!"_ ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2021, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-stakes-in-sf-fantasy-stories/937384/9 "2021-03-07T19:59:14Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > Roger Zelazny’s _Amber_ series, although it doesn’t really get cosmic until the fourth or fifth book. I thought of that one, as well as a few others where the stakes are said to be cosmic. It struck me that, though there are fights and battles, the heroes are never seen literally flinging suns around. It is just that if they fail in their quest, the world as we know it will end. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2021, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-stakes-in-sf-fantasy-stories/937384/10 "2021-03-08T00:25:16Z")
> [@digs](#): > > But I’ve got to say, I’ve lost patience with “this will mean the end of the universe” stories. So many SF stories, fantasy series, comic arcs, and Hot New Streaming Paranormal Super Teen Dramas feel like they need to show how important they are. > > The Big Bad Guy isn’t just evil, he’s About-To-Destroy-The-World-Nay-The-Universe evil. The dorky nerd doesn’t just discover he’s a hero, he’s The Only One Who Can Save The World. Televised rather than written science fiction, but: _Doctor Who_ (particularly under Steven Moffat) was notorious for this. It’s not just the universe that is in danger…this means the end of _time itself_ (etc. etc. etc.) !!! ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2021, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-stakes-in-sf-fantasy-stories/937384/11 "2021-03-08T00:37:28Z")
Seconding the _Lensman_ series. In a different vein: _Thief of Time_ - Terry Pratchett _Good Omens_ - Pratchett/Gaiman _Callahan’s Key_ - Spider Robinson ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2021, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-stakes-in-sf-fantasy-stories/937384/12 "2021-03-08T00:38:28Z")
Stephen Baxter’s “Xeelee Sequence” novels (_Ring_, _Raft_, _Flux_, _Timelike Infinity_) are literally about the effective destruction of the universe by “photino birds” that are suppressing energetic fusion in all stars so as to prevent supernovae, thus making stars too cool to support baryonic life, and the efforts by the enigmatic Xeelee race to actually go back in time, re-engineer themselves, and then build a massive structure made of rotating cosmic string to open an Einstein-Rosen bridge to another universe suitable for life, abandoning this one to the supersymmetric particle-based life. In the novels, future humanity is actively but ineffectually fighting against the Xeelee out of ignorance of their plan and motivations, and a few small groups of humans have managed to pass through the ring into universes with physics that is at least marginally compatible with Earth biochemistry. In _Raft_, for instance, the descendants of the crew of a ship that passed into a universe with similar atomic laws but a gravitational force a billion times greater than our universe struggle to survive. So, end of the universe and escape to another…pretty epic stakes. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2021, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-stakes-in-sf-fantasy-stories/937384/13 "2021-03-08T00:51:05Z")
Not as high class as Stephen Baxter’s SF, but Jack Chalker’s book in his Well World series The Return of Nathan Brazil features a potentially universe-destroying superweapon that gets out of control and – well – threatens to destroy the universe: > [@](#): > > A viral species named the Dreel, originating from outside the Milky Way galaxy, invades human territory. The central human government, known as the Com, attempts to fight back, but finds that their resources are inadequate to repel the invaders. In desperation, the records of the work of Gilgram Zinder (who had discovered the superimposed Markovian reality and built the sentient supercomputer Obie to manipulate it) are unsealed and his work is reproduced. Lacking the time to develop the technology fully, the Com builds ships called Zinder Nullifiers, which simply erase the contents of the space that they are pointed at. When they make the final stand against the Dreel invasion fleet, the Nullifiers are switched on and left on, obliterating the Dreel fleet. However, something unexpected then occurs, as the void in space begins to grow, erasing everything in its path from existence. > **[The Return of Nathan Brazil](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Return_of_Nathan_Brazil)** > > The Return of Nathan Brazil is the fourth book in the Well of Souls series by American author Jack L. Chalker. > A viral species named the Dreel, originating from outside the Milky Way galaxy, invades human territory. The central human government, known as the Com, attempts to fight back, but finds that their resources are inadequate to repel the invaders. In desperation, the records of the work of Gilgram Zinder (who had discovered the superimposed Markovian reality and built the sentient super... ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2021, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-stakes-in-sf-fantasy-stories/937384/14 "2021-03-08T01:04:51Z")
If webcomics count, then _Schlock Mercenary_. ---
**Author:** ![Uniqueorn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uniqueorn/32/2807_2.png) [@Uniqueorn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uniqueorn)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2021, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-stakes-in-sf-fantasy-stories/937384/15 "2021-03-08T13:07:14Z")
Thank you all for some really good suggestions! ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2021, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-stakes-in-sf-fantasy-stories/937384/16 "2021-03-08T13:21:12Z")
> [@digs](#): > > But I’ve got to say, I’ve lost patience with “this will mean the end of the universe” stories. So many SF stories, fantasy series, comic arcs, and Hot New Streaming Paranormal Super Teen Dramas feel like they need to show how important they are. I’m kinda with you there. It’s like crime dramas where they’re like, “The killer _raped and tortured children_! You’d BETTER care about the story I’m telling!” Well, no. Just because you wrote some hackneyed story about something really, really bad doesn’t mean your story is compelling or important. Sure, the universe (or children) is in danger; but have you given me a reason to _care_? At the point, it almost feels rarer to encounter a fantasy/SF novel where the universe _isn’t_ in danger. But some folks can make me care. So here are some examples of at least world-spanning danger where there are also compelling characters and an interesting plot and lovely writing. Spoilers ahoy: _The Farthest Shore_: THe end to the original Earthsea trilogy. Death itself is on the verge of defeat, which will bring madness to the world of the living. _The Broken Earth_: NK Jemisin’s series opens with the apocalypse and spends the rest of the series getting you to empathize the the wizard who wrought it. (Yeah, this is an oversimplification, but it’s not entirely wrong). _His Dark Materials_ War between heaven and hell, sort of, along with possible multiverse collapse. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2021, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-stakes-in-sf-fantasy-stories/937384/17 "2021-03-08T13:39:39Z")
Hey - I’m still reading that! Please don’t spoil books that are under six months old. ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2021, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-stakes-in-sf-fantasy-stories/937384/18 "2021-03-08T14:02:07Z")
I lost some of my appetite for “you must save reality” after watching an excellent Dr. Who episode (the Tenth Doctor, end of new Who Season 2). The bad guys were winning, and if so the Earth would be destroyed. Same with Season 4 only the stakes were higher. So you know the bad guys cannot win. (Kudos for Asimov for making the stars go out. It feels a little bit like George R. R. Martin not making knights in shining armor.) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2021, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-stakes-in-sf-fantasy-stories/937384/19 "2021-03-08T14:05:22Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > Kudos for Asimov for making the stars go out. I think you’re thinking of Arthur C. Clarke here. ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2021, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/high-stakes-in-sf-fantasy-stories/937384/20 "2021-03-08T14:07:25Z")
Oh right.