# higher education in Kentucky **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 30, 2004, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892 "2004-04-30T19:47:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892/21 "2004-05-03T08:18:16Z")
My parents are both profs, so I get regular updates. Somehow we’ve reached this point in the thread without mentioning the biggest outrage: buying off that crook Mumme. And don’t even get me started on KERA. Schools are measured not by how well they do, but rather by how much they improved against the baseline year when ranked against other schools in hte state. Ergo the best high school in the state, which was number one in the baseline year, is always listed as doing badly. Fucking brilliant, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![kyprof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c6cbf5/32.png) [@kyprof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kyprof)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892/22 "2004-05-03T13:27:11Z")
From an email sent by the VP for Finance at UK > [@](#): > > We understand the salary increase does not adequately reward your > efforts, but we are attempting to maintain some progress in salaries > during these difficult budget times. BULLSHIT. They are issuing raises so that people can’t say that they stiffed employees on raises for two out of the past three years!! But given the amounts involved that is what is happening…I found out that it is likely I will be making even LESS money next year because the current UK health plan that I am on is going to increase the monthly premium. I’ll have to see what the numbers are but I think I have a 50/50 chance of my raise being eaten entirely by the rise in UK health program!! This is so, so, so, so, fucked up…Again, I am so outta of U.K… P.S. Just one more thing I have to harp on…the announced raise is one percent (and I am sure that everyone in the administration will get at least that…maybe more, god knows we can’t let senior administrators earn less than they deserve). But I (nd most professors)will not see even one percent. That is because this pot of money has to pay for promotions, counter-offers, etc…so after that is paid there is less than 0.5 percent to pay me. FUCK. FUCK. FUCK. ---
**Author:** ![Paranoid\_Randroid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/paranoid_randroid/32/18_2.png) [@Paranoid\_Randroid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paranoid_Randroid)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892/23 "2004-05-03T14:10:35Z")
Jeez, kyprof. You sound like my old philosophy instructor, always complaining about her salary and telling me I should pay more. (I somewhat agree, but it’s not _my_ fault I don’t pay more. I always wanted to ask if she’d accept donations to shut up.) From everything I’ve heard about the job market for academic PhDs, shouldn’t the both of you be glad for what you’ve got? I don’t know about your sitution, but at least she’s assured a job reading, writing, and teaching what she loves until she retires, and that’s more than I can say for most people. It’s more than I’ll be able to say for myself. ---
**Author:** ![NicePete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892/24 "2004-05-03T14:15:31Z")
UK alum and Ky state employee here. While I share your concerns about UK’s future, color me less than sympathetic about how small your raise is. My compensation is being cut. Sure, I haven’t gotten a raise in two years. No non-merit employee has. But now they’re reducing the employer’s contribution to my health care reserve account by $2000. This effectively cuts $2000 from my salary. So your $200 raise doesn’t sound so bad. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892/25 "2004-05-03T15:27:06Z")
> [@Jimmy Chitwood](#): > > It sounds rough, and I sympathize with you, but I can’t help asking- what does the basketball coach have to do with you? He’s not taking any money out of your pocket. Not at UK, anyway. If anything he could be putting a little bit into it. Yeah, that’s probably right. I think the beef is a correct one: what does it say about values that a University turns a big part of itself into a big-time sports entertainment franchise? That’s not educational business. I dunno how UK does it, but Michigan’s athletics budget is a separate critter. Revenue sports like hockey, b-ball, and football fund the non-revenue sports like tennis, gymnastics, etc. Licensed logo sales goes mostly to the athletic department, too. Now, the athletics department brings good things to whole U, like recognition, alumni loyalty, and increased interest from prospective students. That certainly helps. But separate budget or not, good vibes to the University or not, it does sometimes feel like educational values are being twisted around a bit. I was doing some research last year on what universities were pushing in what direction, and it was surprising (to the point of laughability) how many of them were saying things like “We’re going to be a Top X research university by year X” There is only so much room at the top, and even with a doubling of the NIH budget there is only so much research funding to be grabbing for. UK isn’t even an AAU place is it? You’re probably doing the right thing by shopping around for somewhere else. That sometimes gets more budget attention, when a University can show the number of faculty lured away by offers in other states. ---
**Author:** ![kyprof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c6cbf5/32.png) [@kyprof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kyprof)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892/26 "2004-05-03T15:29:09Z")
> [@Cheese Monster](#): > > Jeez, kyprof. You sound like my old philosophy instructor, always complaining about her salary and telling me I should pay more. (I somewhat agree, but it’s not _my_ fault I don’t pay more. I always wanted to ask if she’d accept donations to shut up.) From everything I’ve heard about the job market for academic PhDs, shouldn’t the both of you be glad for what you’ve got? I don’t know about your sitution, but at least she’s assured a job reading, writing, and teaching what she loves until she retires, and that’s more than I can say for most people. It’s more than I’ll be able to say for myself. Donations are gladly accepted 🙂 I agree with how annoying it is to hear people complaining about stuff like this…that is why I am doing it here rather than in front of students. People can always ignore me if they would like. Feel free to as well. I know that I’m bitching but this seems like a good place for it. I won’t go into the pros and cons of academic jobs. Plenty of good things in terms of security and intellectual freedom. Plenty of bad things in terms of long hours, low pay relative to the amount of education/experience required, and high research expectation. On the whole it balances out in a way that works for me or I wouldn’t be in it. But the combination of duties vs. benefits changes (as is the case here at U.K.) then it so does satisfaction. The job market for academics is varied and there are certainly plenty of people worse off than me. That said, being thankful for a job only goes so far…eventually those who can will leave. (Bit of Background: I have declined 4 to 5 invitations to apply for other jobs over the past four years to give U.K. a shot. Since they’ve made it clear how little they value me I figure that it is time to go.) ---
**Author:** ![kyprof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c6cbf5/32.png) [@kyprof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kyprof)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892/27 "2004-05-03T15:34:18Z")
> [@AugestWest](#): > > UK alum and Ky state employee here. While I share your concerns about UK’s future, color me less than sympathetic about how small your raise is. > > My compensation is being cut. > > Sure, I haven’t gotten a raise in two years. No non-merit employee has. But now they’re reducing the employer’s contribution to my health care reserve account by $2000. This effectively cuts $2000 from my salary. So your $200 raise doesn’t sound so bad. Wow! That sucks even more than UK. Doesn’t mean it sucks less for me but you have my sympathy. Could be time for you to look for another job (or state) as well. ---
**Author:** ![kyprof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c6cbf5/32.png) [@kyprof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kyprof)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892/28 "2004-05-03T15:35:29Z")
> [@AugestWest](#): > > UK alum and Ky state employee here. While I share your concerns about UK’s future, color me less than sympathetic about how small your raise is. > > My compensation is being cut. > > Sure, I haven’t gotten a raise in two years. No non-merit employee has. But now they’re reducing the employer’s contribution to my health care reserve account by $2000. This effectively cuts $2000 from my salary. So your $200 raise doesn’t sound so bad. Wow! That sucks even more than UK, you have my sympathy. Could be time for you to look for another job as well. It is just crazy how little the state of Kentucky cares about the things that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Ale\_8\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Ale\_8\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale_8_One)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892/29 "2004-05-03T15:39:37Z")
I’m also sympathetic. To a point. I’m faculty at one Kentucky’s regional universities, where we also took a big budget hit, already make less than UK faculty and also have a higher teaching load, and aren’t even seeing so much as a $200 pay raise. However, I’m not griping at kyprof–I’m griping at Frankfort and the administration that supports our athletics teams out of the General Fund (in other words, yes, athletics here drains every other program) and gives our coaches six-figure incomes. I agree with your rant, but I am not sympathetic to your plight! Finals week giving you plenty of time to post, eh? ---
**Author:** ![kyprof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c6cbf5/32.png) [@kyprof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kyprof)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892/30 "2004-05-03T15:46:54Z")
> [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](#): > > I dunno how UK does it, but Michigan’s athletics budget is a separate critter. Revenue sports like hockey, b-ball, and football fund the non-revenue sports like tennis, gymnastics, etc. Licensed logo sales goes mostly to the athletic department, too. Now, the athletics department brings good things to whole U, like recognition, alumni loyalty, and increased interest from prospective students. That certainly helps. But separate budget or not, good vibes to the University or not, it does sometimes feel like educational values are being twisted around a bit. It is probably the same thing here…in terms of self-supporting. Still I thing it really costs the university in real ways. As earlier posters noted, land gets used for sports facilities that displaces other uses such as parking for everyone. The energy and attention of senior administrators get spent on it. I remember seeing sometime (no cite available) of a study of NCAA costs and benefits. If I remember correctly it tended to be a money-maker for the big sport powerhouse schools and a money-loser for a lot of the smaller weaker schools. So on the whole the system lost money although schools like UK and Michigan got money…can’t remember this exactly…so take it for what it is worth > [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](#): > > I was doing some research last year on what universities were pushing in what direction, and it was surprising (to the point of laughability) how many of them were saying things like “We’re going to be a Top X research university by year X” There is only so much room at the top, and even with a doubling of the NIH budget there is only so much research funding to be grabbing for. Beautiful…I guess we’re all trying to be above average. > [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](#): > > UK isn’t even an AAU place is it? Not sure what that is? DO you mean American Association of University Professors? > [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](#): > > You’re probably doing the right thing by shopping around for somewhere else. That sometimes gets more budget attention, when a University can show the number of faculty lured away by offers in other states. Perhaps…but the english department lost a slew of faculty this year (around 6-8) and only gets to hire 3 or so replacements…and are not schedule for any special increases. ---
**Author:** ![Ale\_8\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Ale\_8\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale_8_One)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892/31 "2004-05-03T15:53:35Z")
If you are in the English department, kyprof, then I rescind by decline of sympathy and offer it instead. I’m not in English, but I recognize that they get screwed over salary-wise more so than anyone in any other department. If you are in business, engineering, or medicine, however, I not only maintain my lack of symptathy, but I offer up contempt instead! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![kyprof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c6cbf5/32.png) [@kyprof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kyprof)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892/32 "2004-05-03T15:59:23Z")
> [@Ale 8 One](#): > > I’m also sympathetic. To a point. I’m faculty at one Kentucky’s regional universities, where we also took a big budget hit, already make less than UK faculty and also have a higher teaching load, and aren’t even seeing so much as a $200 pay raise. However, I’m not griping at kyprof–I’m griping at Frankfort and the administration that supports our athletics teams out of the General Fund (in other words, yes, athletics here drains every other program) and gives our coaches six-figure incomes. I agree with your rant, but I am not sympathetic to your plight! Finals week giving you plenty of time to post, eh? Great user name. Ale 8 One: I do know that things are better for me at U.K. then at one of the regional schools. I appreciate both your sympathy and gentle reminder that my situation is relative… Finals! Oh my God!!! I gotta get going!!! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ale\_8\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Ale\_8\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale_8_One)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892/33 "2004-05-03T16:09:10Z")
Have you gotten your contracts for 2004-2005? We’re still waiting, and there is a rumor that we might get a token amount of merit pay–which would be the first time in about four years. ---
**Author:** ![kyprof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c6cbf5/32.png) [@kyprof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kyprof)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2004, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892/34 "2004-05-03T16:42:46Z")
> [@Ale 8 One](#): > > Have you gotten your contracts for 2004-2005? We’re still waiting, and there is a rumor that we might get a token amount of merit pay–which would be the first time in about four years. No contracts yet. The news is just trickling down. There is a merit component to our salary increases but it has always been very small. Last year I figured that the difference between getting the highest amount of merit increase versus the smallest would have been 100 to 300 dollars. Not a lot of motivation. Of course, the real increases only seem to come when you have another job offer…always seems so backwards but this is a failing common to academia and not just U.K. Here’s hoping that you get even the token amount of merit pay… ---
**Author:** ![kyprof](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c6cbf5/32.png) [@kyprof](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kyprof)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892/35 "2004-05-04T11:11:04Z")
Here we go…more professors (much more important to UK than I) are leaving [Herald-Leader Article](http://www.kentucky.com/mld/heraldleader/8583146.htm) > [@](#): > > Two more high profile professors are leaving the University of Kentucky. > > Both Mike Desch, director of the Patterson School for Diplomacy, and Stuart Kaufman, an award-winning political science professor, say budget cuts played a large part in their decisions. ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892/36 "2004-05-04T12:36:54Z")
> [@kyprof](#): > > Not sure what that is? DO you mean American Association of University Professors? > > . [http://www.aau.edu/](http://www.aau.edu/) It’s the Association of American Universities, whose generic name is misleading. It’s a consortium of research universities, 62 members right now. It’s generally the places who bring in the big research dollars and are known for their research emphasis. ---
**Author:** ![Epimetheus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/c4cdca/32.png) [@Epimetheus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Epimetheus)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892/37 "2004-05-04T12:46:31Z")
> [@Abbie Carmichael](#): > > Anyone remember the Kentucky Education Reform Act (KERA)? > > The idea was that if you make the little darlings write in middle school and high school, they’ll suddenly become smarter. No longer did you simply have to do a math problem: oh, no. You had to write an essay about how you solved the friggin’ math problem. And for extra fun, they’d do these end-of-the-year tests and put you with a group of your classmates and you got to solve some stupid math or science problem TOGETHER and write about it. Oh joy! Sorry to hijack, but this must be where my college Algebra teacher got her ideas. :rolleyes: The only math teacher I have ever had in which the class is writing intensive. We get the pleasure of writing 4-5 page long papers telling her how we set up the problems, citing outside sources, and graded for grammar. We are doing the third and final paper this semester (exponential and logrithmic functions), and shes made sure to put in the header this little gem: Perform the indicated mathmatics for each question below. Write at least one paragraph for each question below (12 questions). In the paragraph, respond to all questions and suport your response with information from the problem or outside sources. All of the responses should be thoughtfull, thorough, and presented in complete sentences. Papers should be typed. If an outside source is used please site[sic] the reference. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892/38 "2004-05-04T19:46:39Z")
I hate that they’re systematically destroying higher education in a state that so desperately needs it. Sadly enough, though, the problems get worse the further down the food chain you go. The profs at UK are getting screwed, the ones at the smaller regional schools ( **Ale 8 One** , I’m guessing you’re at Eastern, right?) are getting screwed harder. The primary and secondary teachers at the public schools, though, are taking it right up the ass, and being made to provide their own lube. KERA does indeed suck the big one, as my mother, aunt, and mil will attest. My mother’s school has been the highest-scoring elementary school in the county since way before KERA, and it’s maintained that lead. (Right now, about the only students they have who aren’t doing really, really well are the ones who are mentally retarded, and most of them are doing the best they can.) However, they’re a shade away from being declared a “school in crisis” because they aren’t bringing their test scores up enough. Being declared in crisis means punishments, and lots of them. It’s some fucked up shit when people who have consistently done well are being punished for it. The punishments, of course, are designed to “increase accountability” but are all targeted at the teachers, with no consequences at all for the people who actually write the portfolios. The kids don’t give a shit about the portfolios and tests, as long as they pass to the next grade. And why should they? It’s not _their_ jobs on the line if the scores aren’t high enough. There’s really not a lot of rhyme or reason to how they’re evaluated, either. My senior portfolio got rated either Apprentice or Proficient, I don’t recall which. My cousin, who reads poorly enough to screw up passing out presents at Christmas, was ranked Distinguished the same year. Like I said, KERA is some fucked up shit. **Brian** , it’s not even a matter of trying to get extra funding. If you don’t meet the improvement guidelines, you run the risk of getting your funding cut. Then they send in people to teach you how to teach, and if you’re still not getting increasing by the percentage they’ve pre-set for you, you run the risk of being fired. Yes, schools that exceed the guidelines get bonuses, but as schools keep improving, the bonuses become nearly impossible to achieve. Oh, and **Epimethus** , writing a couple of shortish papers a semester doesn’t sound out of line to me. It’s essentially a take-home test where you have to show and actively explain your answers. If you truly understand what you’re doing, explaining it’s no problem. We used to have short-answer problems on calculus tests all the time in college. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2004, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892/39 "2004-05-04T22:58:10Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > **Brian** , it’s not even a matter of trying to get extra funding. If you don’t meet the improvement guidelines, you run the risk of getting your funding cut. Then they send in people to teach you how to teach, and if you’re still not getting increasing by the percentage they’ve pre-set for you, you run the risk of being fired. Yes, schools that exceed the guidelines get bonuses, but as schools keep improving, the bonuses become nearly impossible to achieve. **CrazyCatLady** , my mother taught elementary school for 20+ years until she got a job working for Murray State University doing a reading program with elementary school kids. I know more about KERA than I could ever possibly want to. She got incredibly lucky, though, as her school was in the top 5 in the state in reading for her last few years. I agree that the KERA rewards structure is warped. I won’t even give the legislature credit for trying, because KERA has been a trainwreck since day 1. ---
**Author:** ![Ale\_8\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Ale\_8\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale_8_One)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2004, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892/40 "2004-05-05T12:35:24Z")
> [@CrazyCatLady](#): > > I hate that they’re systematically destroying higher education in a state that so desperately needs it. Sadly enough, though, the problems get worse the further down the food chain you go. The profs at UK are getting screwed, the ones at the smaller regional schools ( **Ale 8 One** , I’m guessing you’re at Eastern, right?) are getting screwed harder. Good guess! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/higher-education-in-kentucky/242892.md?page=3)