# Highest name ordinal suffix? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 4, 2007, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518 "2007-07-04T19:32:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cub\_Mistress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea666f/32.png) [@Cub\_Mistress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cub_Mistress)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518/21 "2007-07-05T15:13:27Z")
[QUOTE=Szlater] So the Junior, Senior and various Roman numerals are actually included on official identity documents? Are they put on birth, marriage and death registrations too? [/QUOTE] When I filled out a passport application, there was a separate block for the suffix. Now that records remain with us forever, I think people are going to start to keep their ordinal numbers. If you downgrade to Jr. when the seniormost dies, you are going to have identification problems with credit reports and other records. By the time we start having a large number of people going by Joe Jones XIII, it won’t look as weird as it would now. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518/22 "2007-07-05T15:56:48Z")
[QUOTE=Cub Mistress] When I filled out a passport application, there was a separate block for the suffix. Now that records remain with us forever, I think people are going to start to keep their ordinal numbers. If you downgrade to Jr. when the seniormost dies, you are going to have identification problems with credit reports and other records. By the time we start having a large number of people going by Joe Jones XIII, it won’t look as weird as it would now. [/QUOTE] Hmm.. I always thought that the Junior, Senior and so on were unofficial. Well I guess that’s some ignorance eliminated. Are they compulsory? Could I just name my son “John Smith” even if my name also happened to be called “John Smith”? And can you elect to drop them altogether if there are multiple generations of “John Smith” alive? Could I name my first son “John Smith Jnr”, my second son “John Smith III” and my third son “John Smith IV”? ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518/23 "2007-07-05T16:06:54Z")
I personally know a IX and a X in Houston. IX owned the company and X did some consulting for him. X had a young son who was XI but I didn’t meet him. The first name of the clan was Alexander. They went by Al, Alex and Alec. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518/24 "2007-07-05T16:09:41Z")
George Foreman has 5 male children, all named after him. He goes from I to VI in one generation. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518/25 "2007-07-05T17:00:40Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] George Foreman has 5 male children, all named after him. He goes from I to VI in one generation. [/QUOTE] I bet he gets grilled whenever he goes through Custioms and Immigration… “All your male children have the same name as you? Not even different middle names? Is this some sort of scam?” Using different ordinals to separate the people of the same name in the same generation makes sense, I guess.. does it apply across more than one set of parents? Say George Foreman III and George Foreman IV (who are brothers), both have a son and name him George Foreman. Would these two sons be George Foreman VII and George Foremen IX? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518/26 "2007-07-05T17:25:58Z")
[QUOTE=Sunspace] Using different ordinals to separate the people of the same name in the same generation makes sense, I guess.. does it apply across more than one set of parents? Say George Foreman III and George Foreman IV (who are brothers), both have a son and name him George Foreman. Would these two sons be George Foreman VII and George Foremen IX? [/QUOTE] I have read about a noble/royal family in Europe (can’t remember the details, though), in which all the male members have exactly the same name. They are numbered in order of birth, so you have the ordinals crossing to 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc., cousins. Every few generations, they start over again from “I.” [QUOTE=Szlater] I always thought that the Junior, Senior and so on were unofficial. [/quote] They’re official if they are used officially, such as on legal documents and interactions with the government. If they’re not used officially they’re not official. > [@](#): > > Are they compulsory? In the United States there are no name laws, so they couldn’t be compulsory. > [@](#): > > Could I just name my son “John Smith” even if my name also happened to be called “John Smith”? I’m sure you could, but you’d have to be willing to deal with all kinds of legal and financial mixups. Even people who are not related but have the same name get caught up in credit record problems. > [@](#): > > And can you elect to drop them altogether if there are multiple generations of “John Smith” alive? So long as you don’t have a fraudulent purpose, you can do what you like with your name. ---
**Author:** ![if6was9](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e47c2d/32.png) [@if6was9](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/if6was9)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518/27 "2007-07-05T17:34:36Z")
Here’s a side question. Suppose there was a John Edward Smith. He has two sons, John Edward Jr. and Jeff William. John Jr. has a son and names him John Edward Smith III. Then Jeff William Smith has a son and wants to name him John Edward Smith. Would that son be a IV? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518/28 "2007-07-05T17:36:35Z")
[QUOTE=if6was9] Here’s a side question. Suppose there was a John Edward Smith. He has two sons, John Edward Jr. and Jeff William. John Jr. has a son and names him John Edward Smith III. Then Jeff William Smith has a son and wants to name him John Edward Smith. Would that son be a IV? [/QUOTE] If I were in charge, yes. But they don’t put individuals in charge of these things. ---
**Author:** ![Colophon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f05b48/32.png) [@Colophon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colophon)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518/29 "2007-07-05T17:42:22Z")
[QUOTE=Sunspace] I bet he gets grilled whenever he goes through Custioms and Immigration… [/QUOTE] 😃 Will you, perchance, be here all week? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518/30 "2007-07-05T17:56:52Z")
I am sure some wisenhiemer parents named their Kid “John Doe the 99th” or something along those lines, somewhere. No law against it. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518/31 "2007-07-05T18:01:30Z")
How about Henry Ford II? I presume that he is named Henry, but is not the son of the real one. Had Henry (the Real One) had a son named Hnery, he would have been Henry Jr, not II. Right? ---
**Author:** ![Cub\_Mistress](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ea666f/32.png) [@Cub\_Mistress](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cub_Mistress)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518/32 "2007-07-05T19:26:44Z")
[QUOTE=if6was9] Here’s a side question. Suppose there was a John Edward Smith. He has two sons, John Edward Jr. and Jeff William. John Jr. has a son and names him John Edward Smith III. Then Jeff William Smith has a son and wants to name him John Edward Smith. Would that son be a IV? [/QUOTE] That’s about how it was handled in my husband’s family, except the younger son’s child was born first. Grandpa was John Jr., his oldest son was John III, younger son was Mark. Mark’s son became John IV. John III has no son as of yet, but has stated his plans to name him John V, if he ever exists. ---
**Author:** ![brianmelendez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/65b543/32.png) [@brianmelendez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianmelendez)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2007, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518/33 "2007-07-05T20:21:55Z")
Several posters have cited Miss Manners (Judith Martin) for the we-all-move-up-in-rank rule. Emily Post offers a more common-sense approach: > [@](#): > > **Affirming the Lineage** > > In some families, names are carried on through three or more generations – John (Sr.) is succeeded by John, Jr., and Johns III, IV, and V. But this presents something of a problem once John, Sr., has died. Does each man retain the title by which he has always been known, or does everyone “move up”? > > The only “rule” in this regard is to use common sense. Moving up the suffixes is bound to cause confusion among acquaintances who used to know the new John, Jr., as John III – and then there are the changes that must be made on personal accounts and bank checks. While keeping a name through the generations reflects a proud family history, many people feel the complications outweigh the advantages. Indeed, it is probably wise for the succession to be discontinued after the third generation by giving the fourth-generation child a different middle name. He who might have been John Griggs Davis IV may be the first of a distinguished line of John Spencer Davises. Peggy Post, _Emily Post’s Etiquette_ 322 (17th ed. 2004). ---
**Author:** ![ejfour](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/77aa72/32.png) [@ejfour](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ejfour)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518/34 "2013-01-21T19:20:46Z")
My name is “Emile Joseph Fagerstrom IV, EJF,” when I was born, 1966, there were three “EJF,” namesakes alive, granting me the suffix “IV,” there were previous “EJF’s,” born outside the United States who had passed. This May/June 2013, my son will be born with the suffix, “V.” My father is still alive and I’m both emotionally and spiritually motivated to name my son, “Emile Joseph Fagerstrom V” :D:D ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518/35 "2013-01-21T19:32:09Z")
“I’m Larry, this is my brother Darryl and my other brother Darryl…” ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518/36 "2013-01-21T19:40:09Z")
[Napoleon XIV](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnzHtm1jhL4). (As per the OP, a civilian, not a royal, or a pope.) [[Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleon_XIV)] ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518/37 "2013-01-21T19:46:26Z")
I know a guy who was born a “III” but had daddy issues and legally changed his name as an adult, taking a different last name and ditching the “III”. None of his sons appear to be interested in becoming a “IV”. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518/38 "2013-01-21T21:13:11Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > Technically if you changed I think you’d be a II, not a Jr since the latter only applies to your father’s name. > > I’m still a Jr for the IRS my driver’s license, etc, although my father has died. I was always a Jr. even though I had a great grandfather, great uncle, and second cousin of the same name. Thats a lot of Old Guys. ---
**Author:** ![Peanuthead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peanuthead/32/360_2.png) [@Peanuthead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peanuthead)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518/39 "2013-01-21T21:53:48Z")
I’m reminded of the story of an upper level official in the Johnson administration who referred to Malcolm X as Malcolm the 10th. Don’t know if it’s true or not but it’s a cool story. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2013, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518/40 "2013-01-21T22:00:37Z")
> [@Peanuthead](#): > > I’m reminded of the story of an upper level official in the Johnson administration who referred to Malcolm X as Malcolm the 10th. > Don’t know if it’s true or not but it’s a cool story. I remember watching the Malcolm X movie. Towards the end there is a scene where he knows the bad guys are out to get him, and he checks into a hotel, giving his name as Mr X. I leaned over and whispered to my wife “Why didn’t he use an assumed name… such as Y?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/highest-name-ordinal-suffix/410518.md?page=3)