# Hijabs oppress women? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176 "2019-04-07T16:23:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/81 "2019-04-08T08:58:06Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > African-American women and black women working in professional fields generally in America face intense pressure not to adopt natural hair styles. There are even reputable companies and entities—including the U.S. military—that actively discourage or prohibit black women’s wearing natural hair styles. > > That means that they are required to adopt often expensive, uncomfortable, or even unhealthy practices to straighten their hair or cut their hair short and wear wigs. > > It seems obvious to me that this is oppressive. Yep – that would fit the definition all right. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Another quote from that article: > > "People who say that Muslim women wear a hijab because they’re forced to, well I’m forced by myself. I would hopefully, God willing, knock on wood, never take it off, because I don’t see that as an option for myself. " > > Yep, no oppression there. Jesus, by your logic, what ISN’T oppression? I feel an expectation to comb my hair and brush my teeth before I leave the house – does that mean I’m “oppressed” by oral hygiene? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8491ac/32.png) [@Fake\_Tales\_of\_San\_Francisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fake_Tales_of_San_Francisco)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/82 "2019-04-08T09:39:37Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Can you expand on this some more? > > A couple of weeks ago, my coworker, boss, and I had to hold a public hearing. It is expected that officiants of a public hearing wear something a little spiffier than the usual business casual. My boss and I were wearing blazers, but my coworker showed up without one. My boss pointed it out in a semi-serious fashion, but as far as I know, my coworker wasn’t penalized. > > Still, he bucked an expectation. I have no doubt in my mind that if the expectation is not met for the next public hearing, my coworker will hear about it from my boss again, and it won’t be “semi” serious this time. > > Is my coworker “oppressed”? Or is he simply living in a society where one is expected to dress a certain way in certain contexts? > > If being expected to conform to a standard is “oppressive”, then all of us are oppressed. You’re not comparing like for like. What if it was company policy for women to wear a hijab only in the presence of men? The hijab is a symbol of oppression whenever the punitive measures (physical or psychological) levied against non-conformers breach that individual’s human rights. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/83 "2019-04-08T11:07:48Z")
About a decade ago I was watching documentary about an immigrant Muslim families in Michigan and one of them had a daughter who wanted to start wearing the hijab once she became a teenager. Her parents, especially her father, were against the idea and tried to talk her out of it but she wouldn’t budge. Like many teens, she was establishing her own identity in a rebellious manner and the hijab was part of that. When the father wasn’t around the teen asked her mother why he was so strongly opposed to her wearing it and was told, “Your father is afraid people will think he made you wear it.” The hijab actually has a long a controversial history even within the Muslim world. Iranian women violated the law to wear theirs in protest of the Shah’s policies and westernization. A few decades ago you wouldn’t have found many women in Egyptian cities wearing the hijab but it’s quite common now. Wearing one isn’t necessarily a sign of oppression but when the morality police can have you fined or arrest for not wearing one it can certainly be oppressive at those times. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/84 "2019-04-08T11:30:59Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > That’s why I said I think it _can_ be oppressive , not that it _is_. Because , to use your example, I’m sure there are many Indian women who prefer to wear saris - but I am also sure there are many Indian women who wear saris not because they want to , but because of pressure from their family/community. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that I don’t remember ever seeing the reverse- a woman dressed inconspicuously while a man with her wears traditional attire. I see that with Sikhs - the women blend into mainstream America much better than the men do. Some types of Orthodox Jew are like that, too - the women blend in better than the men due to the dress codes. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/85 "2019-04-08T11:36:41Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I believe you speak sincerely, yet your words haven’t convinced me to stop supporting my favorite donut shop. I also don’t have a problem supporting the bean-pie selling Black Muslims, even though the sisters are often decked out in abayas. But perhaps if one of the women in those groups reached out to me personally and let me know they were being victimized, I’d stop patronizing their businesses. > > I mean, you will never see me singing the praises of any religion. I think humans will always be stunted as long as we cling to religion, especially traditional ones. But I think focusing on what people wear on their heads oversimplifies a complex issue. Find me a country where women don’t have power and I’ll agree with you that it’s oppressive. But I won’t be looking at what the women are wearing to make that assessment. I don’t think you have any obligation to stop supporting that donut shop – oppression is a pretty damn common thing, IMO. That women in some cultures and societies face some forms of oppression is not surprising at all. And this includes our own culture and society. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try and change these cultures for the better, but I don’t think boycotting that donut shop would aid this effort (and may harm it). ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/86 "2019-04-08T12:21:22Z")
Since the beginning of recorded history, women have been subservient to men in the very large majority of cultures. A lot of it stems from religious fanaticism. The Christian Right oppresses women by saying that they must give birth to a child even if they themselves do not wish it. A lot of it is based on this: > [@](#): > > Ephesians 5:22-33 New International Version (NIV) > > 22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything. If that isn’t subservient and oppressed, I don’t know what is. The Islamic Right can and has publicly given women lashes for any violation of their dress code, which, for the fanatics, means even having a film of black material covering the eyes. [**Koran 4:34 says**](https://www.politicalislam.com/httpfrontpagemagcomarticlesreadaspxguid2accd764-5177-4d05-9186-4b9efe442849/) that if a wife is not submissive, first admonish them and remind them that Allah wants them to submit. If they don’t submit then use social pressure by ignoring them and not having sex. If that doesn’t work, then beat them lightly. Mohammed laid out more rules for these beatings. Do not strike them in the face.(That leaves public bruises.) One of his rules (Sunna) was not to ask a man why he beats his wife. He stood around, more than once, while beatings were administered to women and slaves. Beatings are a fundamental part of Islamic justice. The Koran mentions Job beating his wife, beatings in Hell and beatings for adultery. Mohammed gave advice to a woman not to marry a certain man because he beat his wives, but he did not condemn the beatings. When awoman came before him seeking justice about her husband, her face was bruised from a beating. Mohammed made no comment about the beating that bruised her face. I could go on and on from culture to culture, but the fact is that you either see it or you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![putnam6](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/putnam6/32/4082_2.png) [@putnam6](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/putnam6)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/87 "2019-04-08T12:49:52Z")
All you have to do is look at pictures of Afghanistan in the early '70s to figure out if it’s required by religious doctrine or individual desire. It’s required by religious demands who leaders are all men. Yet it’s not oppressive? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/88 "2019-04-08T13:13:19Z")
Yesterday at the mall I saw a woman wearing a hijab – with cat ears > **[Cat Ears | Claire's US](https://www.claires.com/us/hair/headbands-and-headwraps/cat-ears/?cgid=3029)** For some reason, this gives he hope for the future. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/89 "2019-04-08T13:47:32Z")
Being forced to wear any article of clothing is oppressive. I am not of any religion, yet I wear a hat every day. Why? Because I want to, not because of some religious belief. Working as a store cashier, I do have to deal with all groups of people, including woman with headgear, which I can accept, and those covering their faces, which I simply find oppressive and ridiculous, but I do not make a scene. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/90 "2019-04-08T14:04:22Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Here here!!! Women who wear them because of their own free will, due to a personal feeling (the same as one might wear a crucifix or what have you), that’s not oppressive. They also don’t really phase me all that much, since growing up a few of the nuns at our church still wore veils. Well…kind of. If they feel they HAVE to wear them (to make God or the gods happy) then that is a form of oppression, IMHO. Earlier, a poster said that her mother doesn’t swear because she feels God would get mad at her or something. So, it’s self imposed oppression due to indoctrination. I see that as a similar form of oppression to some Catholic or whatever who feels they have to wear a crucifix or carry around a Rosary or have prayer beads or…wear a certain type of dress or eat a certain way because it’s what God wants. The irony with the hijab and burka is that it isn’t really part of Islam. It’s part of some Arabic cultures that have been adopted into Islam, but it isn’t really something that Muhammad directly, who basically said something along the lines that men and women should be modest and covered in their dress and appearance. This could mean a host of things, but some Islamic sects have taken it in different directions, often because of the underlying culture that adopted those sects. I’m recalled to Monty Python Life of Brian where the guy everyone thinks is the Prophet is running through the street and his shoe falls off and he drops a gourd. One group picks up the shoe and says this means something, and another group picks up the gourd and says that this is the important bit and means something else…and then both groups go to war. All that said, if someone volunteers to wear something because of their choice, regardless of whether they have been indoctrinated to think that way, then I don’t think anyone should make a fuss about it. Sadly, a lot of people don’t have a choice, as they are forced by their society or their family into a mold and so their choice is made for them long before they could or would be able to make such a choice themselves. I was put in such a mold, and had I stayed in my neighborhood (or worse, back in the small village in Mexico my family came from) with all my family and friends I’d be a good Catholic boy these days…just like everyone else around me. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/91 "2019-04-08T14:50:16Z")
Women here dress as their moms dressed. It is as wrong to tell someone what to wear as it is to tell them what they may not wear. ---
**Author:** ![ZonexandScout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zonexandscout/32/544_2.png) [@ZonexandScout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZonexandScout)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/92 "2019-04-08T15:35:34Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I think the problem in this thread is the loaded term “oppression.” If someone will throw me in jail, beat on me, or impose certain restrictions on my freedom because of something I might want to do, then oppression may be the right word as it pertains to their actions regarding my conduct. > > If someone thinks less of me, doesn’t want to be my friend, or pokes fun at me for doing something, then maybe they are wrong or are being an asshole, but “oppression” just doesn’t seem to fit that sort of action. > > Suppose I wake up early and don’t have any creamer for my coffee. I run to the store with teeth unbrushed, hair uncombed, and walk into the store in flip flops and boxer shorts, balls half-way hanging out. People think I am a homeless guy or poke fun. Am I being oppressed? I think that is a bit much. > > There comes a point where you are saying that others are not even allowed to have opinions unless their opinions are correct just like yours always are. You need to start shopping at Wal-Mart. You’d be considered “business casual” there. ---
**Author:** ![Pazu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pazu/32/15522_2.png) [@Pazu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pazu)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/93 "2019-04-08T17:17:54Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > I’m not trying to sound clueless, but I’m just trying to find the line between “oppressive” and “voluntarily conforming or catering to someone’s else standards.” > > Many men are not shy about expressing their disdain for short hair on women. If their wives or GF were to cut their hair, would it be oppressive for their male partners to express negative feelings about it? Would he be an oppressive bastard if he were to dump her over it? Is a woman who has always wanted to cut her hair but has never done it because she knows her husband wouldn’t like it “oppressed”? Is a man who has always wanted a beard but has never let it grow out for his wife’s sake “oppressed”? I think it’s an interesting question on a number of levels, and I think the difficulty of finding that line is because there’s a spectrum of meaning in both “oppression” and “voluntarily conforming…” This hits a somewhat personal note for me because I have a colleague/“friend” of many years, who grew up in Iran during the Revolution and came to the US for college. She does not wear a headscarf and has in the past expressed disdain for the “morality police” in Iran, and yet has said to me such things as “I would like to cut my hair short but my husband\* won’t let me.” To me, that is at the very least _controlling_ behavior, which I suspect has its roots in an oppressive societal background. But when I asked further, her response was basically that she considers her preferences subordinate to her husband’s. So is that “voluntary” conforming, or is she shackled by her own upbringing in an oppressively patriarchal culture? I don’t have a good answer. (\*Husband is about 15 years older and also grew up in Iran. Also basically forced her to end our friendship because he couldn’t stand the idea of her being good friends with a male colleague. Don’t get me started…) ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/94 "2019-04-08T17:27:34Z")
I’ve talked to some of the really religious Christian men who think they can dictate how their wives dress and act because the Bible says so. So it’s not just a Jewish/Muslim thing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/95 "2019-04-08T17:32:03Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > I’ve talked to some of the really religious Christian men who think they can dictate how their wives dress and act because the Bible says so. So it’s not just a Jewish/Muslim thing. Sure. But then there’s the 90% of American wives who DO dictate how their husbands dress. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/96 "2019-04-08T17:40:16Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Jesus Christ on a pogo stick, all of your responses have been non-sequiturs, irrelevancies, and gross misrepresentations. My responses have been relevant and on-point. It isn’t me tying myself in knots trying to justify an oppressive culture for the sake of “diversity.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/97 "2019-04-08T17:46:01Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > This is what is confusing me. Just saying “It’s all oppression!” doesn’t answer the question of why one thing (the hijab) gets so much more hate than all the other things that fulfill the same purpose. The arbitrariness of a set of social conventions is easier to see when you don’t share them. Westerners see hijabs as unreasonable because they’re not part of our social code. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/98 "2019-04-08T17:59:16Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > So it’s not just a Jewish/Muslim thing. Is anyone here arguing that? Because [it](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2015/05/29/duggars-women-defraud-men-by-dressing-immodestly/) [certainly](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/justandsinner/the-mansplaining-approach-to-female-modesty-go-duggars-or-go-home/) [isn’t](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2017/12/the-impossible-standards-of-christian-purity-culture.html) [me](https://www.desiringgod.org/articles/modesty-misunderstood). Plenty of Christian women are both oppressed and brainwashed. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/99 "2019-04-08T18:09:17Z")
I have a couple of friends who are female and Muslim. One does not wear a hijab. We’ve never discussed this, so I don’t know her stand, but she is devout. The other converted to Islam and is a successful attorney in a high-powered law firm. She’s always been fiercely independent and a feminist. She said the hijab is just one manifestation of the principle of modesty. Her husband, who is also Muslim, covers his head… And neither one of them wears form-fitting or revealing clothing. I think there’s a certain freedom in that form of dress. I went to Catholic school back when nuns wore habits. One of the nuns told our class that she liked wearing a veil because it meant she didn’t have to spend time fixing her hair or focusing on her appearance instead of more important things. Makes sense. My hijab-wearing friend points out that Islam, like all religions, tends to take on the contours of the individual cultures that adopt it. Some of those cultures have always been oppressive and misogynistic and interpret the Quran accordingly. Others haven’t and don’t or have but no longer do. If we’re going to concern ourselves with the oppression of women, let’s focus on the more egregious–and culturally rooted–forms, such as the low literacy rate for women in Pakistan\* (about 45% versus 70% for men). And if we’re going to do that, let’s recognize that it’s even lower in some Pakistani provinces than others (in one province, male literacy is 61%, female literacy 22%) because provinces differ in their cultural history. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/100 "2019-04-08T18:28:10Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Why don’t you ask an average conservative woman what would happen if she decided to stop wearing a bra in public? Or she decided to stop wearing make-up out in public? Or heaven forbid, she decided she wanted to dress in men’s clothes and keep her hair short. Well, my wife is a conservative woman and she works in a church. So can I assume that you would accept her experience as an answer to these questions? Some days my wife wears makeup; some days she does not. Some days she wears heels; some days she wears tennis shoes. She wears whatever she wants, when she wants, as long as it’s within the reasonable parameters for a workplace. Liberal workplaces have the same reasonable parameters, I believe. So I feel safe in saying that the “average conservative woman” is not forced wear any particular article of clothing. As for pressure, she experiences no more pressure to dress in a particular way than an average liberal way. Do you disagree? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176.md?page=6)