# Hijabs oppress women? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 7, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176 "2019-04-07T16:23:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/121 "2019-04-10T00:38:02Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Yes, it is weird how progressives push against “the patriarchy” forcing women to dress/act in certain ways […] but eat it up like ice cream when it comes from Islamic society. Pfft. I don’t see any progressives/feminists endorsing Muslim women being forced or shamed into wearing hijab. What we advocate is that Muslim women, like all other women, have the right to wear what they want. ---
**Author:** ![Doubticus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e56c9b/32.png) [@Doubticus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubticus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/122 "2019-04-10T00:47:30Z")
I think that the unspoken point that “conservative white men” are hypocritical and as such are not in good standing to proclaim that hijabs oppress women is a good one. But the hijab as an article of clothing looks to me as coming from an oppressive culture of treating woman as property, whether or not woman see it as an issue of modesty. As an American, freedom of religion and expression, would trump a ban on hijabs. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/123 "2019-04-10T04:48:38Z")
“Just, you know, normal.” Sure. So was Jim Crow for many years. When I go to the grocery store and I see a couple in there composed of a man wearing a tight t-shirt and tight jeans, and a woman virtually wearing a burqa (except that her eyes and the bridge of her nose are visible), a huge black covering on a hot summer day, I can’t help but see that as oppressive. > [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Yes, it is weird how progressives push against “the patriarchy” forcing women to dress/act in certain ways (including looking down on women who “choose” to follow the standards of that culture, including Quiverful women) but eat it up like ice cream when it comes from Islamic society. Do you see feminists celebrating [this](http://christiansdressingmodestly.com/)? It’s a pretty huge double standard. I understand the impulse behind it, though: white liberals are very leery of being seen as telling people of color that their culture is inferior in some way. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/124 "2019-04-10T05:13:54Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Pfft. I don’t see any progressives/feminists endorsing Muslim women being forced or shamed into wearing hijab. What we advocate is that Muslim women, like all other women, have the right to wear what they want. No one who is under control of their own mind would _want_ to wear the \*burka \* or even the _niqab_. if a woman does say so they have been brainwashed into it. Headscarfs, sure. When you say “hijab” that includes anything from a stylish headscarf to a total body covering restrictive tent, in which is it hard to breath and the woman cant see properly. > **[What's the difference between a hijab, niqab and burka?](https://www.bbc.co.uk/newsround/24118241)** > > Hijab, niqab, burka - there are lots of different kinds of headscarves worn by Muslim women all over the world. Do you know which is which? I dont think any reasonable person has a issue with a headscarf. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/125 "2019-04-10T05:28:51Z")
Agreed. Some of the scarves Ilhan Omar wears are really chic and attractive looking: [What the Ilhan Omar Controversy Is Really About | GQ](https://www.gq.com/story/ilhan-omar-aipac-controversy) I could see women wanting to rock that look regardless of their culture or religion. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/126 "2019-04-10T06:13:54Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > My responses have been relevant and on-point. It isn’t me tying myself in knots trying to justify an oppressive culture for the sake of “diversity.” Like your claim that something a woman chooses to do is oppressing her? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/127 "2019-04-10T12:48:45Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > Full disclosure first : I am a first generation immigrant from India. I was born in a Hindu family, went to school in an all boys Catholic school from pre-K all through high school and I currently lean towards my own brand of atheism. I have friends and family from different religions. > > One of my friends is a Muslim lady (also an immigrant from India) who went to college in the US and a prominent social worker very successful in her work. > > She carriers a Burqa in her car and says she wears it only when she enters the premises of the mosque because it is mandatory. She also sends her daughter to the “school” in the mosque. Her daughter comes home and says that the mullah says that your mother is “sinning” by working and that she is destined for hell (the Mullah says other things to her little girl too that she then has to deprogram). > So anyways, her reasoning for the Burqa and such things is that if she doesn’t wear it, she will be driven out of her community and the community (especially the Mullah) makes it a point to make life hell for outcasts. Her community is pretty strong and their reach extends beyond US. For example, if she disobeyed, her family in India or Middle East or Canada can be made an outcast. So she doesn’t make a big deal about it. > > In a lot of ways, there are elements of the Stockholm syndrome too and I can her passing on her burqa habits to her child too. That certainly sounds oppressive. And I said above that I think there’s a vast difference between covering your hair and covering your face. My a priori assumption when I see women wearing face-covering garments is that there’s a problem. I’ve visited my local suburban mosque, and the women all covered their hair. (And both men and women wore a lot of clothing, and covered everything but their heads and hands) but no one covered her face. And as they prostrated themselves during prayer, and I saw a sea of raised bums, I suspected that the women were happy to stand behind the men, not in front of them. I spoke with women in this mosque. They are doctors and accountants. They took the “wealthy Westerner” version of the haj, which protected them from a lot of the risks, but did put them next to middle Eastern women as they prayed. (One told me she tried to get a peek at her neighbor’s face when she uncovered it as part of the ritual prayer.) I’m an outsider, but I don’t think these women are oppressed, and if they cover their hair, it’s because they choose to. One of the cashiers at my company cafeteria wears one of those elastic hair coverings that covers all the head except the face. I don’t know her well, but I doubt she’s oppressed into wearing it. I think there’s a lot of oppression of women in the middle East. (And frankly, in the world.) And I’m sure some of that carries over to immigrant communities in more open societies. But I don’t think Islam, or the hijab, are the problems. I think the way Islam is practiced is a symptom of underlying problems. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/128 "2019-04-10T13:18:00Z")
> [@Chisquirrel](#): > > Like your claim that something a woman chooses to do is oppressing her? You mean the woman who said that she would “never take it off, because I don’t see that as an option for myself”? How often do you hear people who feel that they are free say that something “isn’t an option” for them? That they have no choice but to do it? ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/129 "2019-04-10T13:31:11Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > But I don’t think Islam, or the hijab, are the problems. I think the way Islam is practiced is a symptom of underlying problems. Yes, Islam (like Christianity and Judaism) can be pretty mild, as long as you choose to ignore a large percentage of what your holy books explicitly tell you to do. The people that really try to live like the Torah/Bible/Quran actually say for them to live? Those aren’t the groups that you want to be part of. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/130 "2019-04-10T13:59:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **am77494** : > > I think equally important is what you didn’t see i.e.Muslims boys standing out of the crowd because of their attire or grooming details. As it happens, I did have one male Muslim student that day who did stand out of the crowd because of his attire, so much so that I had to send him to the office for a dress code violation. Though I doubt that the practice of wearing one’s pants about one’s knees is a culturally-enforced tradition. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/131 "2019-04-10T13:59:46Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > “Just, you know, normal.” Sure. So was Jim Crow for many years. :rolleyes: Sheesh, **SlackerInc** , you really need to read more carefully. What I clearly said was that **if** a universal cultural norm **isn’t** oppressive, then it’s just “normal”. Nowhere did I deny that universal cultural norms can indeed be oppressive. > [@Dr Deth](#): > > When you say “hijab” that includes anything from a stylish headscarf to a total body covering restrictive tent, in which is it hard to breath and the woman cant see properly. I’m willing to modify the terms to make the meaning less potentially ambiguous, but note that “hijab” is very widely used as synonymous with “headscarf”. Personally, I oppose the use of the burqa/niqab or any other ritual face-covering in a social context in a (theoretically at least) open egalitarian society such as the US. I think it is not unreasonable to expect people in our culture to conform to our basic cultural norm that people interacting with other people in public should not cover their faces when doing so. (I’ve posted about this before with the phrase “burqah = pardah”: namely, a woman who covers her face in public for “modesty” reasons is declaring that she’s socially invisible, and should not expect other people to interact with her in a workplace, social setting, etc.) But when it comes to hijab/headscarf, shayla, kimar, turban, headwrap, abaya, bonnet, wimple, or any other form of “modest” clothing that doesn’t involve covering the face, what I say is that Muslim women, like all other women, have the right to wear what they want. Period. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/132 "2019-04-10T15:00:05Z")
I couldn’t get through 130 posts but it’s oppressive only if women are being oppressed. Many women find the hijab to be freeing, to support being seen for what they can do and who they are rather than an object for men to drool over. Other women where the hijab is legally mandated feel that they should have a choice. My wife is from a liberal family in Egypt and most of them do not cover their heads but a couple do. No oppression, they just do what they feel comfortable with. ---
**Author:** ![EarlGrayHot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e480ec/32.png) [@EarlGrayHot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EarlGrayHot)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/133 "2019-04-10T15:33:30Z")
Being forced to wear a particular clothing item is indeed oppressive. If you want to wear it then fine but forced is another matter. Many Middle Eastern countries have religious police who roam around and harass women if they are not dressed or behaving as the religious police think they should. THAT is definitely oppression. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/134 "2019-04-10T15:33:41Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Yes, Islam (like Christianity and Judaism) can be pretty mild, as long as you choose to ignore a large percentage of what your holy books explicitly tell you to do. The people that really try to live like the Torah/Bible/Quran actually say for them to live? Those aren’t the groups that you want to be part of. Tell me where in the Holy Books does it require a woman to wear the burka? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/135 "2019-04-10T15:35:36Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > … > I’m willing to modify the terms to make the meaning less potentially ambiguous, but note that “hijab” is very widely used as synonymous with “headscarf”. > > Personally, I oppose the use of the burqa/niqab or any other ritual face-covering in a social context in a (theoretically at least) open egalitarian society such as the US. I think it is not unreasonable to expect people in our culture to conform to our basic cultural norm that people interacting with other people in public should not cover their faces when doing so. (I’ve posted about this before with the phrase “burqah = pardah”: namely, a woman who covers her face in public for “modesty” reasons is declaring that she’s socially invisible, and should not expect other people to interact with her in a workplace, social setting, etc.) > > But when it comes to hijab/headscarf, shayla, kimar, turban, headwrap, abaya, bonnet, wimple, or any other form of “modest” clothing that doesn’t involve covering the face, what I say is that Muslim women, like all other women, have the right to wear what they want. Period. Then we are mostly in agreement. A few cultures require the entire body but the face be covered. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/136 "2019-04-10T16:29:52Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > By whom? To what degree? As a woman in the United States, I’m \*expected \*to wear a bra, to cover my breasts at the beach, to wear makeup in professional situations, to wear a fairly narrow range of uncomfortable shoes in pretty common situations . . . And I generally meet these expectations because to NOT meet them would, in some cases, make me extremely uncomfortable (i.e., no bra or shirt) or, in other cases (wearing shoes and makeup), would send a message of disrespect that I don’t want to send. > > Am I oppressed? This is the million dollar question, isn’t it? Most (all?) of our interactions are learned and regulated by cultural forces that not only dictate what clothing is appropriate when, but also instill in us a feeling that following those rules is comfortable and natural. Whether or not a given cultural norm is “oppressive” is, ultimately, a question of how far down the rabbit hole we want to get about challenging our fundamental subconscious desire to fit in with a group, and what the social consequences are for those who fail to meet standards in certain ways. If a braless, makeupless woman is going to have a more difficult time getting a job in a professional setting or getting respect from her peers in the business world than her peers, well, I don’t know if that’s oppression, but it’s certainly a way in which society punishes people who don’t conform to arbitrary standards. Throw the idea of gender/race/power dynamics into the mix, and these social rules instantly become more sinister. **Mnemnosyne** was spot on in their post #53. All that is to say that this is a much deeper and more complicated issue than pointing to a cultural clothing requirement and declaring it oppressive or oppression-free. Until we can successfully claim to treat those who reject all cultural norms exactly the same as those who conform (hint: we never will), it’s nonsensical and hypocritical to declare some cultural practices oppressive. What we _can_ do is address the consequences for breaking the norms. A hijab is not oppressive, but responses to the choice to not wear one could be. ---
**Author:** ![TimfromNapa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d26b3c/32.png) [@TimfromNapa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimfromNapa)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/137 "2019-04-10T20:03:05Z")
Since when do “conservative American white men” have a monopoly on racist/sexist attitudes? There are plenty of haters, including misogynists, among women as well. Idiotic hatred is not for men only! ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/138 "2019-04-10T20:15:27Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Tell me where in the Holy Books does it require a woman to wear the burka? Well, for the Quran there is [this](https://islamqa.info/en/answers/13998/verses-and-hadeeth-about-hijab) and from the Bible there is [this](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/kermitzarleyblog/2016/07/why-should-women-cover-their-hair-because-of-the-angels/). ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/139 "2019-04-10T21:19:51Z")
> [@Darren\_Garrison](#): > > Well, for the Quran there is [this](https://islamqa.info/en/answers/13998/verses-and-hadeeth-about-hijab) and from the Bible there is [this](https://www.patheos.com/blogs/kermitzarleyblog/2016/07/why-should-women-cover-their-hair-because-of-the-angels/). _And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands’ fathers, their sons, their husbands’ sons, their brothers, their brothers’ sons, their sisters’ sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed._ Yep, that does mean wear a scarf and dont expose your private parts. - But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: \* Yep, wear something in Church to cover your head. I dont see where is sez to cover your entire body. ---
**Author:** ![Two\_Many\_Cats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8dc957/32.png) [@Two\_Many\_Cats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_Many_Cats)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176/140 "2019-04-10T22:06:44Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > By whom? To what degree? As a woman in the United States, I’m \*expected \*to wear a bra, to cover my breasts at the beach, to wear makeup in professional situations, to wear a fairly narrow range of uncomfortable shoes in pretty common situations . . . And I generally meet these expectations because to NOT meet them would, in some cases, make me extremely uncomfortable (i.e., no bra or shirt) or, in other cases (wearing shoes and makeup), would send a message of disrespect that I don’t want to send. > > Am I oppressed? To an extent, yes, you are. I would object strenuously to any job (except perhaps selling makeup) forcing me to wear makeup if men are not also forced to. I would also refuse to wear high heel shoes. A job can forbid me to wear something, but not force me to wear anything, except for a uniform. I am deeply offended by lookism. I am not kidding. Clean and presentable is all any job needs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hijabs-oppress-women/832176.md?page=8)