Yep – that would fit the definition all right.
Jesus, by your logic, what ISN’T oppression? I feel an expectation to comb my hair and brush my teeth before I leave the house – does that mean I’m “oppressed” by oral hygiene? :rolleyes:
You’re not comparing like for like. What if it was company policy for women to wear a hijab only in the presence of men?
The hijab is a symbol of oppression whenever the punitive measures (physical or psychological) levied against non-conformers breach that individual’s human rights.
About a decade ago I was watching documentary about an immigrant Muslim families in Michigan and one of them had a daughter who wanted to start wearing the hijab once she became a teenager. Her parents, especially her father, were against the idea and tried to talk her out of it but she wouldn’t budge. Like many teens, she was establishing her own identity in a rebellious manner and the hijab was part of that. When the father wasn’t around the teen asked her mother why he was so strongly opposed to her wearing it and was told, “Your father is afraid people will think he made you wear it.”
The hijab actually has a long a controversial history even within the Muslim world. Iranian women violated the law to wear theirs in protest of the Shah’s policies and westernization. A few decades ago you wouldn’t have found many women in Egyptian cities wearing the hijab but it’s quite common now. Wearing one isn’t necessarily a sign of oppression but when the morality police can have you fined or arrest for not wearing one it can certainly be oppressive at those times.
I see that with Sikhs - the women blend into mainstream America much better than the men do.
Some types of Orthodox Jew are like that, too - the women blend in better than the men due to the dress codes.
I don’t think you have any obligation to stop supporting that donut shop – oppression is a pretty damn common thing, IMO. That women in some cultures and societies face some forms of oppression is not surprising at all. And this includes our own culture and society. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try and change these cultures for the better, but I don’t think boycotting that donut shop would aid this effort (and may harm it).
Since the beginning of recorded history, women have been subservient to men in the very large majority of cultures. A lot of it stems from religious fanaticism. The Christian Right oppresses women by saying that they must give birth to a child even if they themselves do not wish it. A lot of it is based on this:
If that isn’t subservient and oppressed, I don’t know what is.
The Islamic Right can and has publicly given women lashes for any violation of their dress code, which, for the fanatics, means even having a film of black material covering the eyes.
Koran 4:34 says that if a wife is not submissive, first admonish them and remind them that Allah wants them to submit. If they don’t submit then use social pressure by ignoring them and not having sex. If that doesn’t work, then beat them lightly.
Mohammed laid out more rules for these beatings. Do not strike them in the face.(That leaves public bruises.) One of his rules (Sunna) was not to ask a man why he beats his wife.
He stood around, more than once, while beatings were administered to women and slaves. Beatings are a fundamental part of Islamic justice. The Koran mentions Job beating his wife, beatings in Hell and beatings for adultery. Mohammed gave advice to a woman not to marry a certain man because he beat his wives, but he did not condemn the beatings. When awoman came before him seeking justice about her husband, her face was bruised from a beating. Mohammed made no comment about the beating that bruised her face.
I could go on and on from culture to culture, but the fact is that you either see it or you don’t.
All you have to do is look at pictures of Afghanistan in the early '70s to figure out if it’s required by religious doctrine or individual desire. It’s required by religious demands who leaders are all men. Yet it’s not oppressive?
Yesterday at the mall I saw a woman wearing a hijab – with cat ears
For some reason, this gives he hope for the future.
Being forced to wear any article of clothing is oppressive. I am not of any religion, yet I wear a hat every day. Why? Because I want to, not because of some religious belief.
Working as a store cashier, I do have to deal with all groups of people, including woman with headgear, which I can accept, and those covering their faces, which I simply find oppressive and ridiculous, but I do not make a scene.
Well…kind of. If they feel they HAVE to wear them (to make God or the gods happy) then that is a form of oppression, IMHO. Earlier, a poster said that her mother doesn’t swear because she feels God would get mad at her or something. So, it’s self imposed oppression due to indoctrination. I see that as a similar form of oppression to some Catholic or whatever who feels they have to wear a crucifix or carry around a Rosary or have prayer beads or…wear a certain type of dress or eat a certain way because it’s what God wants.
The irony with the hijab and burka is that it isn’t really part of Islam. It’s part of some Arabic cultures that have been adopted into Islam, but it isn’t really something that Muhammad directly, who basically said something along the lines that men and women should be modest and covered in their dress and appearance. This could mean a host of things, but some Islamic sects have taken it in different directions, often because of the underlying culture that adopted those sects.
I’m recalled to Monty Python Life of Brian where the guy everyone thinks is the Prophet is running through the street and his shoe falls off and he drops a gourd. One group picks up the shoe and says this means something, and another group picks up the gourd and says that this is the important bit and means something else…and then both groups go to war.
All that said, if someone volunteers to wear something because of their choice, regardless of whether they have been indoctrinated to think that way, then I don’t think anyone should make a fuss about it. Sadly, a lot of people don’t have a choice, as they are forced by their society or their family into a mold and so their choice is made for them long before they could or would be able to make such a choice themselves. I was put in such a mold, and had I stayed in my neighborhood (or worse, back in the small village in Mexico my family came from) with all my family and friends I’d be a good Catholic boy these days…just like everyone else around me.
Women here dress as their moms dressed. It is as wrong to tell someone what to wear as it is to tell them what they may not wear.
You need to start shopping at Wal-Mart. You’d be considered “business casual” there.
I think it’s an interesting question on a number of levels, and I think the difficulty of finding that line is because there’s a spectrum of meaning in both “oppression” and “voluntarily conforming…”
This hits a somewhat personal note for me because I have a colleague/“friend” of many years, who grew up in Iran during the Revolution and came to the US for college. She does not wear a headscarf and has in the past expressed disdain for the “morality police” in Iran, and yet has said to me such things as “I would like to cut my hair short but my husband* won’t let me.”
To me, that is at the very least controlling behavior, which I suspect has its roots in an oppressive societal background. But when I asked further, her response was basically that she considers her preferences subordinate to her husband’s. So is that “voluntary” conforming, or is she shackled by her own upbringing in an oppressively patriarchal culture?
I don’t have a good answer.
(*Husband is about 15 years older and also grew up in Iran. Also basically forced her to end our friendship because he couldn’t stand the idea of her being good friends with a male colleague. Don’t get me started…)
I’ve talked to some of the really religious Christian men who think they can dictate how their wives dress and act because the Bible says so. So it’s not just a Jewish/Muslim thing.
Sure. But then there’s the 90% of American wives who DO dictate how their husbands dress.
My responses have been relevant and on-point. It isn’t me tying myself in knots trying to justify an oppressive culture for the sake of “diversity.”
The arbitrariness of a set of social conventions is easier to see when you don’t share them. Westerners see hijabs as unreasonable because they’re not part of our social code.
Is anyone here arguing that? Because it certainly isn’t me. Plenty of Christian women are both oppressed and brainwashed.
I have a couple of friends who are female and Muslim. One does not wear a hijab. We’ve never discussed this, so I don’t know her stand, but she is devout. The other converted to Islam and is a successful attorney in a high-powered law firm. She’s always been fiercely independent and a feminist. She said the hijab is just one manifestation of the principle of modesty. Her husband, who is also Muslim, covers his head… And neither one of them wears form-fitting or revealing clothing.
I think there’s a certain freedom in that form of dress. I went to Catholic school back when nuns wore habits. One of the nuns told our class that she liked wearing a veil because it meant she didn’t have to spend time fixing her hair or focusing on her appearance instead of more important things. Makes sense.
My hijab-wearing friend points out that Islam, like all religions, tends to take on the contours of the individual cultures that adopt it. Some of those cultures have always been oppressive and misogynistic and interpret the Quran accordingly. Others haven’t and don’t or have but no longer do. If we’re going to concern ourselves with the oppression of women, let’s focus on the more egregious–and culturally rooted–forms, such as the low literacy rate for women in Pakistan* (about 45% versus 70% for men). And if we’re going to do that, let’s recognize that it’s even lower in some Pakistani provinces than others (in one province, male literacy is 61%, female literacy 22%) because provinces differ in their cultural history.
Well, my wife is a conservative woman and she works in a church. So can I assume that you would accept her experience as an answer to these questions?
Some days my wife wears makeup; some days she does not. Some days she wears heels; some days she wears tennis shoes. She wears whatever she wants, when she wants, as long as it’s within the reasonable parameters for a workplace. Liberal workplaces have the same reasonable parameters, I believe.
So I feel safe in saying that the “average conservative woman” is not forced wear any particular article of clothing. As for pressure, she experiences no more pressure to dress in a particular way than an average liberal way. Do you disagree?