# Hiking on the Iraq/Iran border. Really? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 10, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972 "2011-06-10T13:34:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972/1 "2011-06-10T13:34:27Z")
Of all the places in the world to go hiking, why would anyone choose “Iraq’s autonomous Kurdish area along the border with Iran” as described in the link below? > **[Released hiker describes friends' abuse in Iranian prison](http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/06/09/iran.detained.hikers/index.html?hpt=hp_c2)** > > Iranian prison guards abused and assaulted two U.S. hikers who have been detained in the Islamic Republic since 2009, according to their friend Sarah Shourd, who was released last year. Two Americans are being held in Iran for entering the country illegally, but I’m having a hard time understanding what the the hell they were thinking. I don’t doubt that there is beautiful countryside, wonderful people to meet, and a culture to explore, but hiking on the border of Iraq and Iran, right now? Really? There was another case like this recently, a U.S. woman I think. In all the news coverage, I’ve never seen anyone question why they put themselves in such a ridiculously risky situation. They’re always portrayed as innocent victims, but I cant’ work up much sympathy for them. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972/2 "2011-06-10T14:31:04Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > Of all the places in the world to go hiking, why would anyone choose “Iraq’s autonomous Kurdish area along the border with Iran” as described in the link below? > [http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/06/09/iran.detained.hikers/index.html?hpt=hp\_c2](http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/06/09/iran.detained.hikers/index.html?hpt=hp_c2) > > Two Americans are being held in Iran for entering the country illegally, but I’m having a hard time understanding what the the hell they were thinking. I don’t doubt that there is beautiful countryside, wonderful people to meet, and a culture to explore, but hiking on the border of Iraq and Iran, right now? Really? > > There was another case like this recently, a U.S. woman I think. In all the news coverage, I’ve never seen anyone question why they put themselves in such a ridiculously risky situation. They’re always portrayed as innocent victims, but I cant’ work up much sympathy for them. This is pretty old news. The woman was with them, originally, but was released. It’s the same story. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972/3 "2011-06-10T14:34:05Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > This is pretty old news. The woman was with them, originally, but was released. It’s the same story. Well, the OP is still a valid question, I think. I wondered the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972/4 "2011-06-10T14:35:57Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > Two Americans are being held in Iran for entering the country illegally, but I’m having a hard time understanding what the the hell they were thinking. I don’t doubt that there is beautiful countryside, wonderful people to meet, and a culture to explore, but hiking on the border of Iraq and Iran, right now? Really? > > There was another case like this recently, a U.S. woman I think. In all the news coverage, I’ve never seen anyone question why they put themselves in such a ridiculously risky situation. They’re always portrayed as innocent victims So, can you come up with a better cover story for an innocuous covert operative? ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972/5 "2011-06-10T14:38:52Z")
There’s a joke in there about looking for Irao & Irap between Iran & Iraq. According to them, [they were kidnapped:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Fattal) > [@](#): > > On July 31, 2009, three Americans, Sarah Shourd (32), Shane Bauer (28) and Joshua Fattal (28), were detained by Iranian border guards while allegedly hiking in Iraqi Kurdistan. **Iran claims the three crossed into Iranian territory,[1] but the three Americans claim they were kidnapped from within Iraq**. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972/6 "2011-06-10T14:50:08Z")
> [@Dingbang](#): > > Of all the places in the world to go hiking, why would anyone choose “Iraq’s autonomous Kurdish area along the border with Iran” . . . In all the news coverage, I’ve never seen anyone question why they put themselves in such a ridiculously risky situation. They’re always portrayed as innocent victims, but I cant’ work up much sympathy for them. Why can’t you work up an sympathy? Do you think they were “up to no good?” They have been detained for almost two years for going on a hike. How long do they have to be in jail for going for a walk before you can conjure up some concern? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972/7 "2011-06-10T15:20:43Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > Why can’t you work up an sympathy? Do you think they were “up to no good?” > > They have been detained for almost two years for going on a hike. How long do they have to be in jail for going for a walk before you can conjure up some concern? Not that I agree with the OP, but I think he’s saying something along the lines of: When you do something really stupid, then there’s a good chance bad things will happen to you. That’s not the same as being “up to no good”. Would you go hiking on the Iran/Iraq border? If not, why not? ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972/8 "2011-06-10T15:58:50Z")
I forget… were these three hikers off duty from some humanitarian aid project, or maybe an archeological group? When considering vacation get-a-ways, Iraq isn’t the first place that pops in my mind. Not really the second, either. ---
**Author:** ![spifflog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@spifflog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spifflog)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972/9 "2011-06-10T16:09:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not that I agree with the OP, but I think he’s saying something along the lines of: When you do something really stupid, then there’s a good chance bad things will happen to you. > > That’s not the same as being “up to no good”. > > Would you go hiking on the Iran/Iraq border? If not, why not? Before this happened, sure, I would have hiked there. I guess I for me this didn’t rise to the level of “you are begging for trouble” so I don’t care if you’re fucked, especially as they were clearly not trying fo mess with anyone else. Running with the bulls is in the former category for one. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972/10 "2011-06-10T16:45:45Z")
There are regular flights from Copenhagen to Iraq Kurdistan. Have been so for years. I don’t think the area is extremely dangerous. But in general people should take responsible for their own trouble when they deliberately put themselves in a high risk environment. And especially when it is for frivolous reasons like trekking or climbing Mount Everest, crossing the Greenlandic ice or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972/11 "2011-06-10T16:56:15Z")
Look, regardless of the wisdom of going hiking in one particular area, there is no excuse for how Iran has treated these three (now two) somewhat naive people. If someone goes walking at night in a bad part of town, one can point out that it isn’t a smart thing to do, and yet still hold the muggers responsible for their actions. Unfortunately, most of the discussion here seems to focus on the risky actions of the hikers, and completely lets Iran off the hook for their torture and kangaroo courts. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972/12 "2011-06-10T17:04:16Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Look, regardless of the wisdom of going hiking in one particular area, there is no excuse for how Iran has treated these three (now two) somewhat naive people. If someone goes walking at night in a bad part of town, one can point out that it isn’t a smart thing to do, and yet still hold the muggers responsible for their actions. > > Unfortunately, most of the discussion here seems to focus on the risky actions of the hikers, and completely lets Iran off the hook for their torture and kangaroo courts. But those can be completely separate topics of discussion, and this thread is about the risky behavior. I think we can take it for granted that no one is going to defend Iran here. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972/13 "2011-06-10T17:49:09Z")
I’m not defending Iran at all. What they’re doing to these knuckleheads is wrong and they should send them home now. I’m not advocating that the hikers be held forever. My biggest point is that I don’t even hear anyone in the news addressing their stupidity or questioning them about it. But I still don’t feel much sympathy for someone putting themselves in a fantastically dangerous situation and then suffering the consequences. It’s the same attitude I have for people who do really dangerous stunts just for the fun of it. (I don’t mean something risky but not crazy, like skydiving. I mean the guys for whom that’s not enough and they have to set themselves on fire, jump out without the parachute, land on a hot air balloon, and bungee jump while putting on a chute. While blindfolded. And holding a chicken.) Or someone stupid enough to smuggle drugs in a third-world country where “Turkish prison” would be the nicer option. If these two had been walking down the street in the worst neighborhood in America at 2 am, waving hundred dollar bills and screaming racial epithets at the local hoodlums, I’d support prosecuting the guys who robbed them and beat them. But feel sympathy for them? Nope. The only thing that comes close to making sense is that they actually were there for other purposes, i.e. working for the government in some sense. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972/14 "2011-06-10T18:00:56Z")
Interesting. Wiki says this (underlining mine): > [@](#): > > The three, anti-war, social justice and Palestinian solidarity activists, had been living and active in the Middle East, and were on holiday in Iraqi Kurdistan, an autonomous region of Iraq free from the sectarian struggle that dominates much of Iraq. > **[2009–2011 detention of American hikers by Iran](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%932011_detention_of_Americans_by_Iran)** > > On July 31, 2009, three Americans, Joshua Fattal, Sarah Shourd and Shane Bauer were taken into custody by Iranian border guards for crossing into Iran while hiking near the Iranian border in Iraqi Kurdistan. > At the time of their detention by Iranian troops, the three Americans were on vacation\[citation needed\] from their jobs in the region in a relatively stable, autonomous region of Iraq known as Iraqi Kurdistan. On the recommendations of locals, they hiked to see a popular local Iraqi tour... Is Iran just being paranoid, here? Sounds like these three aught to be the type of folks Iran should get along with. ---
**Author:** ![wisernow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/13edae/32.png) [@wisernow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wisernow)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972/15 "2011-06-10T18:03:01Z")
Sorry for the slight hijack, but what happened to the guy who was released on $500,000 bail? Is he back home in the US? If he is out on bail, then does it imply that he would have to appear in court at some time whenever the case goes to court, in which case does it mean that he still in Iran? Thanks to **mlees** ’s post, the question is answered. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972/16 "2011-06-10T18:43:29Z")
> [@wisernow](#): > > Sorry for the slight hijack, but what happened to the guy who was released on $500,000 bail? Is he back home in the US? If he is out on bail, then does it imply that he would have to appear in court at some time whenever the case goes to court, in which case does it mean that he still in Iran? > > Thanks to **mlees** ’s post, the question is answered. Right. It was the female member of the trio that got released. Her two male companions remain in Iranian prison. The wiki article states that their trial is still not scheduled. ---
**Author:** ![Dingbang](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac8455/32.png) [@Dingbang](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dingbang)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972/17 "2011-06-10T19:16:22Z")
“The three, anti-war, social justice and Palestinian solidarity activists, had been living and active in the Middle East, and were on holiday in Iraqi Kurdistan,…” Well, that helps explain it. That’s the type that would think a picnic on the Iran/Iraq border would be a fine afternoon. ---
**Author:** ![Profound\_Gibberish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Profound\_Gibberish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profound_Gibberish)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972/18 "2011-06-10T19:35:57Z")
Never blame malice when stupidity will do. From my readings over the years it appears they were on an adventure hike with no intention of going into Iran. Sounds like something people with their background would do. They chose a remote area and were caught by Iranian forces, most likely while still in Iraq. At the time of their capture there were many public reports of reporters and legal visitors to Iran getting nabbed and charged as spies. They took the hike anyway, most likely believing that it could never happen to _them_. I personally believe it was an incredibly stupid thing to do, and I have no sympathy for their actions, but I certianly have sympathy for their suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972/19 "2011-06-10T19:36:52Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But those can be completely separate topics of discussion, and this thread is about the risky behavior. I think we can take it for granted that no one is going to defend Iran here. In the few other threads that we’ve had on the issue, discussions of Iran’s despicable actions have always been derailed by “Yeahbut the hikers were teh stupid.” Nobody seemed to object that those threads were about Iran’s joke of a criminal justice system, and not about the hiker’s actions. I guess it is more satisfying to call the three Americans stupid than it is to acknowledge the gravity and the injustice of the situation. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972/20 "2011-06-10T20:23:53Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Look, regardless of the wisdom of going hiking in one particular area, there is no excuse for how Iran has treated these three (now two) somewhat naive people. If someone goes walking at night in a bad part of town, one can point out that it isn’t a smart thing to do, and yet still hold the muggers responsible for their actions. > . Sorry, but how would you know they’re really irresponsible hikers, as opposed to actual spies, as Iran, I guess, states? We had something similar with a diver who was detained for 1 or 2 years in Iran. Of course, the medias were telling that he just had mistakenly dived in Iranian waters, but then again, how would I (or the medias, for that matter) know that it’s true? It’s not like any government is going to admit that the guys caught were, indeed, operatives. And similarly, how would the Iranian authorities know it for certain? Given the overall situation, it’s not an absurd assumption that American operatives could roam around the border or inside Iran. So, Iran might, in fact, have good excuses for not just sending them back with a pat on the shoulder. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hiking-on-the-iraq-iran-border-really/584972.md?page=2)