# Hilarity from Daily Kos **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 22, 2011, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424 "2011-10-22T05:05:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424/1 "2011-10-22T05:05:07Z")
Those scamps at Daily Kos, with the connivance of Sen Bernie Sanders, have pulled a good one! Check out the headline! **Pentagon: Defense Contractors that defrauded the U.S. military recieved $1.1 Trillion** How very droll! Boy, when they start making shit up, they go hog wild! Not only did they get ol’ Uncle Bernie involved, they even got a report all printed up on DoD stationary! Like anybody is going to believe such slander as: > [@](#): > > The report detailed how the Pentagon paid $573.7 billion during the past 10 years to more than 300 contractors involved in civil fraud cases that resulted in judgments of more than $1 million, $398 billion of which was awarded after settlement or judgment for fraud. When awards to “parent” companies are counted, the Pentagon paid more than $1.1 trillion during the past 10 years just to the 37 top companies engaged in fraud. > > Another $255 million went to 54 contractors convicted of hard-core criminal fraud in the same period. Of that total, $33 million was paid to companies after they were convicted of crimes. > > Some of the nation’s biggest defense contractors were involved… Oh, yeah, like we’re so fucking stupid, you screw us over royally, what are we gonna say? “Thank you, may I have another, only harder and without lube?” OK, maybe if it was a bunch of dirty fucking hippies, sure, but these are America’s defense contractors! Upstanding, patriotic citizens who regularly attend their McChurch for a big bucket of Kentucky Fried Jesus! Extra Christian! (Thorny theological question: Would the Prince of Peace approve selling a gun if He knew it wouldn’t work?..) Ridiculous, of course, and cooler heads will be along directly to debunk all this. Seriously, what was I thinking? Why, if this were true, our Congressgits would go ballistic, the Pubbies would lapse into a frenzied orgy of patriotic fury! “String 'em up!” would be the most temperate comment. Seriously, defrauding our military in time of war? What kind of slimeball would do a thing like that, for money? Not a real American, that’s for sure! Not a guy with a flag pin in his lapel, nosir! > **[Pentagon: Defense contractors that defrauded the U.S. military received $1.1...](https://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/20/1028449/-Pentagon:-Defense-contractors-that-defrauded-the-US-military-received-$11trillion?detail=hide&via=blog_1)** > > Remember finding out ... (Warning! Link provided goes to _Daily Kos_. Tighty righty advisory, _thermonuclar_ lefty cooties, even with all power diverted to the shields, unsafe to proceed.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424/2 "2011-10-22T05:11:27Z")
Oh, crap, the link just doesn’t work! Its over at _Daily Kos_, protocols still apply, natch. Links to supporting docs in the body. > **[Daily Kos](https://www.dailykos.com/)** > > Daily Kos is a progressive news site that fights for democracy by giving our audience information and resources to win elections and impact government. Our coverage is assiduously factual, ethical, and unapologetically liberal. We amplify what we... ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424/3 "2011-10-22T05:57:06Z")
Here’s your link, btw. [Pentagon: Defense contractors that defrauded the U.S. military received $1.1 trillion](http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/10/20/1028449/-Pentagon:-Defense-contractors-that-defrauded-the-US-military-received-$11trillion?detail=hide&via=blog_1) I don’t know that I share your outrage, really. The link says that $1.1 trillion went to contractors (and their parent companies) who had received a judgement or settlement, either criminally or civilly, for fraud, not that they had defrauded the US government of 1.1 trillion. And this is also over the past 10 years. So if, in 2001, a Boeing subsidiary had settled with the feds over a civil fraud suit, Boeing and all its subsidiaries would be in the report. Reading the report, it says that the DoD’s position is that, once the civil fraud settlement has been made, there’s the presumption that the company has returned to compliance, and in the case of criminal fraud, the company can be put on a do not approve list for a certain period of time. I don’t know that this is a bad policy. You can make an argument against it, but it makes sense to me. It seems like permanently barring a company and its affiliates because of an isolated case of fraud would be overly restrictive. My dad’s a DoD contract officer, though, so I can ask him what he thinks. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424/4 "2011-10-22T07:07:04Z")
Why would you want the MIC racket to be more efficient? Did your company miss a sweet deal and you’re feeling salty? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424/5 "2011-10-22T08:59:19Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Reading the report, it says that the DoD’s position is that, once the civil fraud settlement has been made, there’s the presumption that the company has returned to compliance, and in the case of criminal fraud, the company can be put on a do not approve list for a certain period of time. I don’t know that this is a bad policy. You can make an argument against it, but it makes sense to me. I think it’d make a leetle more sense to, y’know, stop dealing with people who’ve defrauded you once, have been caught, and will presumably be more careful about their fraud in the future. And if the fraudster is an outsourced subsidiary of a trusted sub-contractor, put it in writing that you don’t want this particular subsidiary involved anywhere near your contract with their parent, or else. After all, there’s an old saying in Tennessee: fool me once, shame on… shame on you… …Fool me - you can’t get fooled agin. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424/6 "2011-10-22T09:39:49Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I think it’d make a leetle more sense to, y’know, stop dealing with people who’ve defrauded you once, It is not simple to shift 50+ billion dollars a year of purchasing to alternate suppliers. Also consider that many companies will settle a fraud case rather than take on the expense of trial. As a hippie dippie OWS supporter, this is a tempest in a teapot. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424/7 "2011-10-22T10:38:11Z")
But deprive one big name company or supplier of a 5+ billion contract over them trying to steal from you, and I think you’ll find few others will be inclined to try and make a shifty million here or there. I’m not big on compromises myself. The government doesn’t \*need \*these people, these people need the government and its buckets of misspent moneys - don’t shit where you eat. If others need encouragement and incentives to deal square and follow the rules, a few heads on pikes usually do the trick. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 10:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424/8 "2011-10-22T10:40:55Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But deprive one big name company or supplier of a 5+ billion contract over them trying to steal from you, and I think you’ll find few others will be inclined to try and make a shifty million here or there. > > I’m not big on compromises myself. The government doesn’t \*need \*these people, these people need the government and its buckets of misspent moneys - don’t shit where you eat. If others need encouragement and incentives to deal square and follow the rules, a few heads on pikes usually do the trick. In **CA’s** post, which you quoted, he noted that: “Reading the report, it says that… in the case of criminal fraud, the company can be put on a do not approve list for a certain period of time.” So, the ability is there. The question is, how often is it used? Not sure if we have that information. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 11:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424/9 "2011-10-22T11:07:38Z")
I was thinking more along the lines of the stereotypical Hollywood producer: get the names of those involved and make sure that none of these people \*ever \*work in this town again. Nor their friends, their relatives, or the people who were supposed to supervise them. Heads. On. Pikes. In my benevolent dictatorship slash living godhood, fuck-ups are easily forgiven but you only get one shot at being straight. If you’re bent, you’re out. No exceptions, and no second chances. Otherwise corruption soon spreads like a yeast infection. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424/10 "2011-10-22T11:09:50Z")
And yet game theory shows us that “tit for tat” is the best strategy. See, I brought tits into this thread after just a few posts! ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424/11 "2011-10-22T11:40:23Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But deprive one big name company or supplier of a 5+ billion contract over them trying to steal from you, and I think you’ll find few others will be inclined to do business with you ever again. (fixed that for you) Some low level flunky decides to submit an improper receipt, or inflate his numbers a bit and a humongous contract that I’ve spend hundreds of millions of dollars tooling up for is vapor? No thanks, I’ll stick to corporate bids from now on, have fun paying 25% more for everything you want to buy. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424/12 "2011-10-22T12:35:53Z")
So, maybe some sort of “we cannot be held responsible for fraud our employees commit” clause is in order? After all, a corporation is only _one man_… it can only do so much! ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424/13 "2011-10-22T13:34:10Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > do business with you ever again. (fixed that for you) > > Some low level flunky decides to submit an improper receipt, or inflate his numbers a bit and a humongous contract that I’ve spend hundreds of millions of dollars tooling up for is vapor? No thanks, I’ll stick to corporate bids from now on, have fun paying 25% more for everything you want to buy. That low level flunky has supervisors riding his ass. Those supervisors have supervisors riding \*their \*asses. If large level fraud to the tunes thousands of dollars (we’re not talking stealing a handful of bloody paper clips here) by that low level flunky was not swiftly caught and dealt with in-house, then those supervisors are either incompetent, in on it, or just don’t give a fuck. Either way they’re just as responsible as the low-level flunky, and I don’t want to have anything further to do with them either. Nor, and this is important, should _you_. It’s your company they’ve just fucked after all. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424/14 "2011-10-22T16:07:44Z")
**Kobal2** is correct. This is one time the Chinese model is the right one. Heads on pikes. And the heads start at the top. If that means nobody supplies our military, well, then. It will just have to shrink some. Win-win. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424/15 "2011-10-22T17:56:32Z")
If the fines are sufficient to dissuade fraud, along with sufficient auditing to detect it, the company should get the government contract death penalty. No more government contracts ever, nor to any company employing or owned by the officers or the particular employees involved. All based on some minimum bar though. No need to bother with small amounts. For a crucial defense industry without a second source, the government should take over the assets of the company. That should be in the contract, but isn’t required. ETA: To the OP, how dare those liberal bastards report the truth in a way that you could use to fabricate a story! ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424/16 "2011-10-22T18:27:29Z")
We expect military contractors to fleece the government. it is just business. Truman got great love for investigating and punishing thieving war contractors. That is not permitted any more. [http://techmiso.com/363/fleecing-of-the-government-it-contractor-severely-overcharging-for-classified-spillage-cleaning/](http://techmiso.com/363/fleecing-of-the-government-it-contractor-severely-overcharging-for-classified-spillage-cleaning/) Many respected companies love gobbling up tax dollars for work they did not do. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424/17 "2011-10-22T18:30:50Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > **Kobal2** is correct. This is one time the Chinese model is the right one. Fair point, it’s not like Chinese companies engage in fraud. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424/18 "2011-10-22T18:34:56Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > **Kobal2** is correct. I am. _double take_ I am ?! Well fuck me, that’s a first. BRB, cracking the bubbly. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424/19 "2011-10-22T19:23:13Z")
> **[Report: Wartime Contractors Waste, Steal Tens Of Billions -- Then Come Back...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/wartime-contractors-waste-billions_n_829251)** > > Report: Wartime Contractors Waste, Steal Tens Of Billions -- Then Come Back For More It is not even a new story. it has been covered for a long time. But nothing is ever done since the contractors are so closely linked with powerful politicians and billionaires. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424/20 "2011-10-22T20:32:45Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Fair point, it’s not like Chinese companies engage in fraud. In the Chinese model, when you get caught you get shot. Then they bill your wife for the bullet. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilarity-from-daily-kos/600424.md?page=2)