# Hilary Gets Booed by Heroes. Had it coming? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2001, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273 "2001-10-24T06:20:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![GreyMatters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a9a28c/32.png) [@GreyMatters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreyMatters)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/61 "2001-10-24T21:51:41Z")
Like I stated in my earlier posts that if a person had to live up to a mythical standard of good to be elected then no one would, most especially the people who actually hold office right now. I see your point about using Hitler as a tool in this argument. So many people here are very touchy. I used Hitler because most people see no good in the guy, including myself, so there is little worry of having grey issues come up about him. The point was, and this is my opinion, that the firefighters don’t think highly of Hillary, they don’t respect her (if you will), and they felt that her presence at this gathering was so insulting they booed her. Obviously the Clinton fans would disagree with this and wouldn’t possibly even try to understand someone’s emotions that don’t correspond to theirs. And, the point that was lost a few posts back, I also stated I don’t think positions, titles, honors, medals, papers, elected posts or anything like these things automatically gives a person MORE respect than anyone else. It is one’s deeds that elevates not the suit you are wearing. And, a suit without a body is nothing but clothe. ---
**Author:** ![GreyMatters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a9a28c/32.png) [@GreyMatters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreyMatters)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/62 "2001-10-24T21:54:47Z")
NM ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/63 "2001-10-24T22:00:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lieu \* > \*\*Why in the heck was the Fire Commissioner booed? > \*\* This will probably get lost in the tidal wave of Hillary stuff, but what the heck. [Here](http://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/24/nyregion/24FDNY.html?searchpv=nytToday) is a New York Times article about the tension between the Fire and EMS workers and their Commissioner. ---
**Author:** ![CnoteChris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/278dde/32.png) [@CnoteChris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CnoteChris)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/64 "2001-10-24T22:23:36Z")
Too bad you need a password to get into that article, **manhattan**. I went there and hoped to pull out a few tidbits from the article and post them here, but it proved fruitless. What it boils down to is sour grapes over a variety of issues with the commissioner and his staff on behalf of a few firefighters within the department. No one issue seems to be the center of anyone’s disdain… it’s all over the place. Sad. A day that many, if not most, people are trying to put aside differences and prejudices, certain men and women assembled there decided to take politically motivated pot shots at others. Sad. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/65 "2001-10-24T22:24:26Z")
Thanks for the NY Times link, **manhattan**. Note the following paragraph: > [@](#): > > Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton and the actor Richard Gere also received their share of scorn. But to the audience of the nationally televised broadcast, for whom Mr. Von Essen had become the human face of a department celebrated for its dedication and heroism, the hooting was a stunning moment. It almost sounds as if the NY Times wasn’t surprised when HRC was booed. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/66 "2001-10-24T22:25:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GreyMatters \* > **I see your point about using Hitler as a tool in this argument. Everyone here is so touchy.** How you say something can be as important as what you say, in some circumstances. Even with your “disclaimer”, your point gets lost in your willingness to compare HRC to Hitler. (Your little joke in your next post doesn’t help your case any, either.) > [@](#): > > \*\*I used Hitler because most people see no good in the guy, including myself, so there is little worry of having grey issues come up about him. The point was, and this is my opinion, that the firefighters don’t think highly of Hillary, they don’t respect her (if you will), and they felt that her presence at this gathering was so insulting they booed her. \*\* And I’m saying that people whose feelings toward Hillary Clinton could be compared in any way to the feelings a Jew might feel toward Adolph Hitler are misguided at best. > [@](#): > > **Obviously the Clinton fans would disagree with this and wouldn’t possibly even try to understand someone’s emotions that don’t correspond to theirs.** On the contrary, I think you have a thread full of them right here. (Although I wouldn’t describe myself as a “Clinton fan”, exactly.) I have tried for years to understand the venom that people feel toward Hillary Clinton, and the best answers I’ve received are lists like december’s. (My feeling is that a similar list could be compiled on most politicians of any stature.) However, I can’t say that I’ve seen a lot of the people who speak so vehemently against Hillary stepping back and reconsidering whether she really warrants such venom. > [@](#): > > \*\*And, the point that was lost a few posts back, I also stated I don’t think positions, titles, honors, medals, papers, elected posts or anything like these things automatically gives a person MORE respect than anyone else. > > It is one’s deeds that elevates not the suit you are wearing. And, a suit without a body is nothing but clothe. \*\* I don’t think that point is lost at all–it’s very clear you feel that way. I can imagine some things that an elected official might do that would make me loudly boo him at a charity fundraiser. However, I fail to understand what Sen. Clinton has done to earn such disrespect. Dr. J ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/67 "2001-10-24T22:34:11Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by GreyMatters I see your point about using Hitler as a tool in this argument. Everyone here is so touchy._ A word to the wise, GM. I have many, many objections to HRC, yet even _I_ don’t like the Hitler analogy. As has been pointed out, it’s not fair to HRC, and it also minimizes the horror of Hitler. I recommend taking Godwin’s Law to heart: > [@](#): > > Godwin’s Law prov. > > [Usenet] “As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one.” There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin’s Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups. However there is also a widely- recognized codicil that any intentional triggering of Godwin’s Law in order to invoke its thread-ending effects will be unsuccessful. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/68 "2001-10-24T23:01:26Z")
And I agree-it’s extremely rude and childish. I mean, Okay, example: let’s say, Oliver North is speaking, and I’m in the audience. I seriously think the man should be sitting in prison. I can’t stand him. However, I would not boo, or heckle. The worst I would do is golf clap. Why can’t these people show the same courtesy? Talk about immaturity. Hell-didn’t both Clinton and Gore say we need to stand behind Bush right now-no stupid petty crap? **december** I wasn’t aware that Rush and Drudge had become reliable sources. And Bill and Hilary are to the far left? Please, don’t make me laugh. And again, I ask you-if it is okay for them to boo Hilary, would it be okay for me to boo Ollie? I don’t think so. It’s called maturity, folks. Once again, you make a statement, and refuse to provide a site. Or you say “you look it up.” No. YOU made the claim. Therefore, it is YOUR responsibility to provide your source. And yes, thank you, **PunditLisa**! Hilary’s no Eleanor, I’ll give her that, but why are people so threatened by strong women? I mean, come on! Look at the SDMB-our beloved **Lynn Bodoni** and **Tuba Diva** run this board and don’t take crap from anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2001, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/69 "2001-10-24T23:19:36Z")
Grey: All I can say is that your point of view is so asinine it make me want to invite elucidator and Stoid to come sailing on my pirate ship. I suppose you if you went to a funeral and you had a gripe with the dead guy, you’d feel it’s appropriate to complain to the widow about it. It’s about aprropriate and decent behavior, and if you don’t wish to engage it, that’s your choice, but the only person who it makes look bad, is you. Even more basic than that, it comes down to whether you have class. ---
**Author:** ![CnoteChris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/278dde/32.png) [@CnoteChris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CnoteChris)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/70 "2001-10-25T00:17:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > **And again, I ask you-if it is okay for them to boo Hilary, would it be okay for me to boo Ollie? I don’t think so. It’s called maturity, folks.** In the same vein, would it be all right to boo George Junior? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/71 "2001-10-25T01:54:21Z")
No. But I’m using North because he’s the president. Some people might say, it’s okay to boo Hilary because she’s just a junior senator and she’s so arrogant, blah blah blah. Plus, I don’t think Dubya is that hateful. Annoying and a bit dense, yes. But not as NASTY and VILE as North. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/72 "2001-10-25T02:20:59Z")
Booing HC publicly at this point is both classless and poor tactical strategy for her opponents. And c’mon, no eye rolling either. It seems odd to me that HC has ended up being the symbol for the “strong women are hated” argument. I think you could make that case more convincingly for Janet Reno. I don’t agree with all of her decisions, but from my perspective she did a decent job and left office with her integrity reasonably intact. The amount of venom spewed in her direction surprises me. It’s arguable that HC became a favorite target not because she was “strong” or “opinionated”, but because of a dichotomy she shares with more than a few male politicians -a heavily promoted image as a selfless, committed voice of the people contrasted with the politician who has more than her share of blatant greed, ambition and hypocrisy. There are many who have trouble accepting that combination in a female national figure. It’ll come with time. And if you think HC has it bad, just wait for the reception coming for the first serious woman presidential candidate who happens to be an even slightly abrasive conservative. It’ll make the reaction to Katherine Harris look like a love-in. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/73 "2001-10-25T02:25:47Z")
I’m not a fan of Hillary’s, and I happen to be one of the people who believes that her futures profits were a laundered bribe to her husband (after looking into it in great detail). HOWEVER, I think the behaviour of those cops was way out of line. If they want to bitch about Hillary over beers in private, fine. But the world was watching, including those of our enemies who are looking for signs of weakness and/or a crack in our solidarity. This was not the place or time. And also, it’s pretty mean-spirited to use an event like that, which many people spent a lot of effort and time and money to put together, to air your grievances. I felt exactly the same way about the asshole who started to attack the U.S. at Todd Bingham’s memorial service. It’s simply flat-out wrong. And besides… Aside from her strange behaviour during Bush’s address to Congress, Hillary has been saying and doing all the right things since Sept. 11, IMO. Good for her. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/74 "2001-10-25T02:48:34Z")
Well, we seem to have covered the propriety aspects. But what I still dont get is why the firement/etc. were so pissed at her. I dont think the “strong women” aspect, though possibly valid, has enough juice to get it there. I mean, in a charity event, where everybody is just overflowing with good vibes, what could have moved them to step so far out of line? It doesn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/75 "2001-10-25T03:46:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > **december** I wasn’t aware that Rush and Drudge had become reliable sources. This is a mere allegation or smear. **Guin** , you need evidence to demonstrate that these aren’t reliable sources. (Actually, Rush played a tape of the response to HRC; that doesn’t leave much room for unreliability.) Are you claiming that she WASN’T booed? Or are you just dinging me because I had the nerve to mention some non-PC people? > [@](#): > > And Bill and Hilary are to the far left? Please, don’t make me laugh. I said HRC was left wing and I stand by that opinion. If you really disagree, please feel encouraged to start a new thread and debate this. > [@](#): > > And again, I ask you-if it is okay for them to boo Hilary, would it be okay for me to boo Ollie? I guess this comment was aimed at me. My earlier posts may have been unclear. If so, I apologize. I was seeking to explain why she was booed, but didn’t mean to take a position in favor of the booing. > [@](#): > > Once again, you make a statement, and refuse to provide a site. Or you say “you look it up.” No. YOU made the claim. Therefore, it is YOUR responsibility to provide your source. **Guin** , your statement is almost self-contradictory. _You_ just made a statement about what my responsibility is, but where’s the cite in support of your statement? I provided a list of critical statements about HRC that are either true or have been reported as true. People who believe these statements will tend to have an animus toward HRC. OTOH people who like HRC may tend to disbelieve or minimize these criticisms. Those with an open mind are free to read the sources which I pointed to and judge for themselves. > [@](#): > > … but why are people so threatened by strong women? Yes, **Guin** seems to have a opint here. Maybe HRC’s strength was a factor in the reponse. OTOH I don’t think those police and fire-fighters would have booed Condoleeza Rice, a strong conservative woman. Frankly, I just don’t think they see HRC as being on their side (although they may be misjudging her.) ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/76 "2001-10-25T03:51:41Z")
**elucidator** : I believe the animal in question in the LBJ incident was a pig (well, to be totally technically correct, a sow). From Hunter Thompson’s _Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72_: Aide: But we can’t call him a p\*\*f\*\*\*\*r! LBJ: I know that! But let’s make him deny it! If I’m not mistaken, I think there’s another poster on this very thread who would have a tough time in this regard as well, by his own confession (different mammals though, right?)… 😛 ---
**Author:** ![CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crankyasanoldman/32/11670_2.png) [@CrankyAsAnOldMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrankyAsAnOldMan)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/77 "2001-10-25T03:52:18Z")
It’s gratifying to see so many of you agree with me that booing is disrespectful and impolite. I got me a new orifice ripped for saying so about the Gere thing. Some people feel it’s an acceptable form of expressing dissent with a speaker. I’m not one of them. I loathe a number of public figures, but I wouldn’t boo them during an appearance. ---
**Author:** ![pldennison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9fc29f/32.png) [@pldennison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pldennison)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/78 "2001-10-25T12:19:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by GreyMatters I see your point about using Hitler as a tool in this argument. Everyone here is so touchy._ > > A word to the wise, GM. I have many, many objections to HRC, yet even _I_ don’t like the Hitler analogy. As has been pointed out, it’s not fair to HRC, and it also minimizes the horror of Hitler. I recommend taking Godwin’s Law to heart: > \*\* Of course, exactly one week ago, in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=93825) thread, you said: > [@](#): > > (I regard the flag-burners as worse than Nazis, but they ar entitled to their rights.) Well, at least you give more leeway to Hillary Clinton than to flag-burners, I guess. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/79 "2001-10-25T13:02:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pldennison \*Of course, exactly one week ago, in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=93825) thread, you said: > > > [@](#): > > > > (I regard the flag-burners as worse than Nazis, but they ar entitled to their rights.) > > Well, at least you give more leeway to Hillary Clinton than to flag-burners, I guess. :rolleyes: \*\* Yep, you got me there, **pl**. It was a remark made in haste which I regret having posted. ---
**Author:** ![GreyMatters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a9a28c/32.png) [@GreyMatters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreyMatters)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2001, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/80 "2001-10-25T14:35:05Z")
Though I don’t agree with most of the posters here on what is and isn’t appropriate at a PUBLIC speach, I do agree with DoctorJ and december that my line of argument has gone astray. But, whatever. Scylla, Have fun on your pirate ship, buddy. december, Hello pot, I’m kettle. With regards to pl’s post. Godwin’s rule is pretty funny though. I guess my reasoning in the use of Hitler and the Nazi’s is pretty popular. I will certainly avoid them in the future. Especially since I have Stalin just waiting behind the curtain. hehe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273.md?page=5)