# Hilary Gets Booed by Heroes. Had it coming? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2001, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273 "2001-10-24T06:20:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/121 "2001-10-26T21:41:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Maeglin \* > This was the account of Scaife’s grand jury testimony which _his own people_ reported. Grand jury testimony is under seal, so Salon was quite above board in reporting that it simply had no way to corroborate this testimony by official means. In essence, a publication hostile to Scaife is taking his own word for what happened. Maybe I’m confused. _Salon_ wrote: > [@](#): > > The account of Scaife’s testimony to the federal grand jury was provided by individuals close to the reclusive scion of the Mellon family and philanthropist of conservative causes. This account could not be independently corroborated by law enforcement authorities. Often, private individuals disclose such testimony to a federal grand jury in order to present a more favorable impression of the witness who gave the testimony.) (my underline) I’m uncertain of just what to make of the underlined attribution. On the one hand, they’re saying that the information came from an anonymous source, so it has low credibility. I do agree with **Maeglin** that _Salon_ is hinting that the information came from Scaife. However, they don’t quite say so. I tend to question whether the information actually came from Scaife, for two reasons: 1. There’s no law against Scaife disclosing his own testimony. He didn’t need to release it anonymously. 2. If the Scaife camp wanted to make Scaife’s testimony public, they could have given the story to their friends at some conservative magazine, rather than to his enemies at _Salon._ Or, they could have put the story directly in the Pittsburgh newspaper that Scaife owns. > [@](#): > > I am in fact partial to liberal political dogma, but I don’t particularly like many liberals themselves. Strangely enough, I’m partial to conservative dogma, but I like liberals very well, including my wife, daughters and many other close friends and relatives. They may not always understand how the world works, but their hearts are in the right place. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Zagna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d2c977/32.png) [@El\_Zagna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Zagna)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/122 "2001-10-26T21:50:53Z")
Guinastasia - Um, what does YMMV mean? The only thing I can come up with is You Make Me Vomit, but that doesn’t seem quite right given the context and all… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/123 "2001-10-26T21:55:12Z")
Your Milage May Vary. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/124 "2001-10-26T22:14:05Z")
**Guinn** , dear heart, I thought you were talking about Cour D’Alene as a place for lefties to live, yet you seem to be talking about the board. Not that it matters. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/125 "2001-10-26T22:41:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*_Strangely enough, I’m partial to conservative dogma, but I like liberals very well, including my wife, daughters and many other close friends and relatives. \* They may not always understand how the world works, but their hearts are in the right place._ \*\* Italics mine. Oh pul-eeze. Disagreement about how to best handle issues does not always equate into ‘I know best, don’t worry your pretty little head about it m’dear, I know you’re heart is in the right place.’ As I recall, **stoid** got roundly (and correctly) condemned here for making such sweeping negative generalizations about an oppositions side. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2001, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/126 "2001-10-26T22:48:00Z")
But may I note that the generalization I made was about things which are a matter of choice, vs. inherent abilities or lack thereof. I think december’s is worse. stoid ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/127 "2001-10-27T00:31:45Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by wring \* > \*\* Oh pul-eeze. Disagreement about how to best handle issues does not always equate into ‘I know best, don’t worry your pretty little head about it m’dear, I know you’re heart is in the right place.’_\* Actually many of my liberal close friends and relatives are men. And, my is a very smart medical school professor. Sorry if my earlier post was misleading. This is not a gender issue for me. ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/128 "2001-10-27T00:33:15Z")
Sorry for the missing word. I meant: And, my wife is a very smart medical school professor. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/129 "2001-10-27T00:34:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by wring \* > > \*\* Oh pul-eeze. Disagreement about how to best handle issues does not always equate into ‘I know best, don’t worry your pretty little head about it m’dear, I know you’re heart is in the right place.’_\* > > Actually many of my liberal close friends and relatives are men. And, my is a very smart medical school professor. > > Sorry if my earlier post was misleading. This is not a gender issue for me. \*\* No, you’re right, it’s not a gender issue, it’s a condescending attitude issue. I notice that you still haven’t pulled back from the “they just don’t know the real world, and of course, I, the conservative, do” stance. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/130 "2001-10-27T00:50:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > No, you’re right, it’s not a gender issue, it’s a condescending attitude issue. > > I notice that you still haven’t pulled back from the “they just don’t know the real world, and of course, I, the conservative, do” stance. > > :rolleyes: \*\* You got it, **wring.** There’s a theory that liberals get a psychic reward from feeling morally superior. That’s one reason why it tickles me to pull their chains by being magnanimously condescending. But, I also more or less meant what I said. I agree with most most liberal values. I have become a conservative because I don’t think that the liberal programs will achieve their desired ends. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/131 "2001-10-27T01:54:59Z")
I swoon. I fall to the floor and gibber. I gather myself together and stagger to the computer. “Once more into the breach…” I will keep my temper, I’m already on double secret special probation. But its hard, oh Lord, so **hard**! **december** , you recited an entire litany of mythical offenses of HRC that might very well have been pressed in G. Gordon Liddy’s prayer book. **Elvis** took them apart, chapter and verse, cites and notations, and revealed without plausible rebutall that they were all unmitigated bulls…that they at best unprovable. The you have the sheer temerit…the unhindered self-esteem to blandly state your conviction that you, as a hard-headed realistic conservative, share the values of cerbrally challenged liberals, but if only they would heed the cool assessments of thier conservative brethren, the path to World Peace and Human Liberation will be smoother. If only we we would heed the Eternal Verities, and leave things in the hands of those whom God, in Her wisdom, has entrusted with the nation’s wealth and power. I think it is Disraeli on Palmerston “It is not that he has the Ace of Trump up his sleeve that I resent so much as his conviction that God Almighty placed in there” What is that you so fervently wish to conserve? What Golden Age wrings tears from your heart at its passing? When Goulds and Vanderbilts flung workingmen into a wine press to squeeze the very life from their bones? When, to quote Stienbeck “the granaries were full, but the highways are lined with destitute families with rachitic children” Was it the tender generosity of conservative men in fine suits that handed down the blessings of the eight hour day, social security, equal voting rights, as gifts from philospher kings, compelled by _noblesse oblige_! Balderdash, sir! Tommyrot! Those blessing were wrenched from their greedy hands by radicals, sir, **radicals**! With fire, storm and pain they convinced the Haves that if they refused to share, they would Have NOT! We are the inheritors of thier brave struggle, and the job is not half done, not even a quarter. Finally, Twain: “Loyalty to petrified opinion never once broke a human chain, and never will” I had best a nice cup chamomile tea, relax, enjoy the sight of my son blasting his brains with his music (all a bunch of noise, you know, not _real_ music, and they way they wear their hair…) For a moment there, I thought I smelled tear gas… “In loyalty to thier kind, they cannot tolerate our minds In loyalty to our kind, we cannot tolerate thier obstruction!” ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/132 "2001-10-27T03:04:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by wring \* > > No, you’re right, it’s not a gender issue, it’s a condescending attitude issue. > > > > I notice that you still haven’t pulled back from the “they just don’t know the real world, and of course, I, the conservative, do” stance. > > > > :rolleyes: \*\* > > You got it, **wring.** > > There’s a theory that liberals get a psychic reward from feeling morally superior. That’s one reason why it tickles me to pull their chains by being magnanimously condescending. > > But, I also more or less meant what I said. I agree with most most liberal values. I have become a conservative because I don’t think that the liberal programs will achieve their desired ends. \*\* 1. “one reason why it tickles me to pull their chains by being magnanimously condescending.” isn’t this conspicuously similar to trollling? ie specifically posting stuff just to f\*\*\* with others? 2. It is quite offensive (not to mention unsupportable, as it’s an obvious opinon rather than fact as you seem to assert here) to state “There’s a theory that liberals get a psychic reward from feeling morally superior” so now you’re attributing motives to your oponents as well. 3. In general when one debates here, we expect that opinions are supported by facts. I won’t bother to ask you for support for your statements here (tho’ others are under no such obligation), for in my experience, what passes as ‘support’ in your world view tend to be some dittohead columnist’s musings. 4. I find it supremely ironic that given #3, and the **elucidors** post that you portray _yourself_ as the one grounded in reality. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/133 "2001-10-27T03:10:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by wring \* > > \*\* Oh pul-eeze. Disagreement about how to best handle issues does not always equate into ‘I know best, don’t worry your pretty little head about it m’dear, I know you’re heart is in the right place.’_\* > > Actually many of my liberal close friends and relatives are men. And, my is a very smart medical school professor. > > Sorry if my earlier post was misleading. This is not a gender issue for me. \*\* So what? It’s still patronizing as goddamn hell. Would you like it if people said, **december** is a nice guy, but he’s just so out of touch, but that’s okay, he has good intentions. It smacks of humoring someone. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/134 "2001-10-27T03:39:25Z")
Oh [**december**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=95556), you might wanna check this out… ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/135 "2001-10-27T13:43:11Z")
**"_There’s a theory that liberals get a psychic reward from feeling morally superior."_** And I suppose that explains why talking heads from _The National Review_ and its ilk will regularly defend the authenticity of some rightwing bigwig (viz. John Ashcroft) by saying, “This is a man of religion.” \ Cluetime, december: there is no one who doesn’t get “a psychic reward” from feeling that what he or she passionately believes happens to be true, or right, or just, or wise. Some of are just less self-deluding than others… \ ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/136 "2001-10-27T14:22:41Z")
**december** , _vis a vis_ Scaife–do you know what the Arkansas Project is? ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/137 "2001-10-27T16:03:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gadarene \* > \*\ ***december** , _vis a vis_ Scaife–do you know what the Arkansas Project is? \*\* I’m no espert in the Arkansas Project. I believe it was a good-government effort to investigate and expose corruption in that state. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/138 "2001-10-27T17:25:30Z")
You believe wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/139 "2001-10-27T18:10:53Z")
And Maeglin runs away screaming with his hands over his ears! **december** , do you know who David Hale is? If you don’t, I highly suggest taking Google for a little spin. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2001, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273/140 "2001-10-27T18:50:00Z")
[David Hale.](http://www.salon.com/news/1998/03/cov_17news.html)[The Arkansas](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/scaifeside050299.htm) [Project.](http://www.house.gov/judiciary_democrats/scaife.htm)[Richard](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/scaife092998.htm) [Mellon](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/players/scaife.htm) [Scaife.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/klayman061098.htm) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hilary-gets-booed-by-heroes-had-it-coming/89273.md?page=8)