# Hillary and Sniper Fire in Bosnia: What's the Defense? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 24, 2008, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581 "2008-03-24T20:25:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![9thFloor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/9/b487fb/32.png) [@9thFloor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/9thFloor)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2008, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581/141 "2008-03-26T12:48:48Z")
[QUOTE=Shodan] Which, in my opinion, demonstrates the problem with trying to explain away gaffes instead of simply saying “I misspoke” and moving on. Because if a candidate starts trying to show that a mistake is not really a mistake, that’s furthering a discussion that may or may not go as you wish. It doesn’t matter for the True Believers; they will swallow whatever you put out. It also doesn’t matter for the True Un-believers - they aren’t listening either. The danger comes for the uncommitted. Suppose Obama responded as above. Leaving aside the first problem, that estimates of al-Queda in Iraq seem to be quite a bit higher than alleged ([cite](http://www.cfr.org/publication/13007/)), it says that Obama did not know that al-Queda in Iraq numbers in the hundreds or thousands. And that can lead to other questions that are best left unasked, for the sake of the Obama image. Is al-Qaeda growing or shrinking in Iraq? Shrinking, by [most estimates](http://www.nypost.com/seven/03202007/postopinion/opedcolumnists/why_its_working _____ opedcolumnists_gordon_cucullu.htm?page=0), and that seems to be due in large part to the surge. Did Obama support the surge? No. So Obama not only doesn’t know that al-Qaeda has already gotten a base in Iraq, but didn’t support the tactics that seem to be driving them out. And so on. All this can be avoided by either admitting the mistake and moving on, as McCain did, or simply avoided if you are like Obama and people don’t seem so eager to ask you hard questions. It’s the same for Hilary. Her explanations are going to get more people to look at the YouTube video and see that she directly contradicts the known facts. And, since she doesn’t simply withdraw her statement, Chelsea gets sucked into this and put into the dilemma of supporting what her mother said, which is dumb, or repudiating it, which looks disloyal. It’s a no-win situation. Regards, Shodan [/QUOTE] Really good assessment. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2008, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581/142 "2008-03-26T14:50:58Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] [This statement by a now-retired general who was there at the time](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080325/ap_on_el_pr/clinton) suggests another aspect of why this lie – this particular lie – could be devastating for Clinton: Much has been made of Clinton’s advantage over Obama with working-class white men, and how that should help to swing the Pennsylvania primary her way. But how many of those men are veterans? How many of those veterans have actually been under fire? How many of that demographic will be disgusted with this fable of heroism and find something better to do with their time than vote for Hillary in the primary? [/QUOTE] [As I was saying:](http://pennsylvaniaprogressive.typepad.com/my_weblog/2008/03/bosnian-vet-acc.html) “Theft of valor” indeed. > [@](#): > > A veteran of Bosnia who was at the event in Tuzla where Hillary Clinton falsely claimed to have landed under sniper fire is accusing the Senator of theft of valor. As General Walter L. Stewart Jr. of the Pennsylvania National Guard said earlier today on a conference call, soldiers who actually have been in war zones and performed under fire deeply despise those who falsely claim such valor. They feel this way because it attempts to cheapen or make less, their real and actual valor. > > [snip] > > Common sense tells us the First Lady and Chelsea would never have been put in harms way by our military. Hillary’s tale of bravery and valor, because it was false, is finding resentment among those who actually did serve and Tammi K. (nee Jann) Hertherington who was at Tuzla when Senator Clinton landed is one. Following this introduction is a long, detailed statement from a veteran who is outraged at Clinton’s aggrandizement at the expense of those – peacekeepers and citizens of Bosnia alike – whose real experiences, real perils, real suffering were hijacked for political gain. > [@](#): > > I am quite angry that what I and my fellow soldiers worked to achieve should be used as a playing card to build up a political nominee and tear down another. This is not what those of us who actually risked our lives were working for, we were trying to maintain a Peace Keeping mission in a country that had been ravaged by ethnic cleansing. To trivialize the atrocities suffered by the real people I met in that country for political gain is beyond my ability to comprehend. I met mothers who had lost their children and children who had lost their parents. The sheer leap of credibility that the First Lady would have brought her daughter into an active war zone is an insult to the people there who suffered more than real risk, they suffered real loss. The full text of Ms. Hertherington’s letter is at the cite. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581/143 "2008-03-26T16:14:41Z")
What do you know–she **was** [telling the truth](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHVEDq6RVXc) after all! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2008, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581/144 "2008-03-26T17:01:46Z")
[QUOTE=ArchiveGuy] What do you know–she **was** [telling the truth](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHVEDq6RVXc) after all! 😛 [/QUOTE] Youtube is blocked for me at work. Can you summarize? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2008, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581/145 "2008-03-26T17:04:29Z")
[QUOTE=ArchiveGuy] What do you know–she **was** [telling the truth](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHVEDq6RVXc) after all! 😛 [/QUOTE] Wow. I think that the collective SDMB was right, and I was wrong. I thought all the talk about “stick a fork in her” was wishful thinking by the Obamaniacs. 'Twasn’t. Hilary Clinton will not be President of the United States of America in 2009. Of course, given my record for picking nominees, this is all she needs to stage a major comeback. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2008, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581/146 "2008-03-26T17:11:51Z")
Here’s a very telling interview with the Air Force colonel who piloted the plane Hillary was on (Caution: Some may find the questioner annoying, but the colonel’s comments are worth putting up with him). It appears that apart from the type of aircraft they were on, every single comment Hillary made in regard to this trip is fictitous. [Link](http://www.breitbart.tv/html/68124.html). ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2008, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581/147 "2008-03-26T17:13:14Z")
[QUOTE=mlees] Youtube is blocked for me at work. Can you summarize? [/QUOTE] It’s footage from one of the network stories last night, leading with her reciting her war story, then following with the Bosnian footage; while a pseudo-news anchor talks about her heroics (she landed the plane; she personally shot a sniper, etc.) the Bosnian footage runs with obviously fake explosions and such stuck into it. It’s quite funny. Watch it when you can. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2008, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581/148 "2008-03-26T17:15:03Z")
[QUOTE=mlees] Youtube is blocked for me at work. Can you summarize? [/QUOTE] It’s devastating. Someone has edited the footage of Hilary’s visit to Bosnia to have people getting their heads shot off standing next to her, as she smiles and greets people. There is a shot of Hilary whipping out a handgun and shooting a terrorist under a truck. The combination of parody and video game violence makes it both excruciating and hilarious. I almost said Hilary-ous, but I doubt she would think so. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2008, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581/149 "2008-03-26T17:26:43Z")
[QUOTE=Starving Artist] Here’s a very telling interview with the Air Force colonel who piloted the plane Hillary was on (Caution: Some may find the questioner annoying, but the colonel’s comments are worth putting up with him). It appears that apart from the type of aircraft they were on, every single comment Hillary made in regard to this trip is fictitous. [Link](http://www.breitbart.tv/html/68124.html). [/QUOTE] Holy. Fucking. SHIT. [According to Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusty_Humphries): > [@](#): > > Ralph Humphries, better known as Rusty Humphries, is an American radio host and songwriter. Humphries’ nationally-syndicated radio show, The Rusty Humphries Show, airs on over 250 stations through Talk Radio Network. The total debunking in the interview is devastating. The mockery is devastating. Never mind a fork; get the tongs out and flip up the lid of the garbage can. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581/150 "2008-03-26T18:19:28Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] Holy. Fucking. SHIT. [According to Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusty_Humphries): The total debunking in the interview is devastating. The mockery is devastating. Never mind a fork; get the tongs out and flip up the lid of the garbage can. [/QUOTE] It sure looks bad when so much of her campaign is stressing her experience and ability to be commander in chief. Maybe she should put on a flight suit and tell it again. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581/151 "2008-03-26T18:33:24Z")
[QUOTE=cosmosdan] It sure looks bad when so much of her campaign is stressing her experience and ability to be commander in chief. Maybe she should put on a flight suit and tell it again. [/QUOTE] And THERE is the comparison that’s most devastating. The last thing any Democratic candidate (or sane Republican candidate, for that matter) should want is to be considered on a par with Commander Codpiece. ---
**Author:** ![Tabithina](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f04885/32.png) [@Tabithina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tabithina)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581/152 "2008-03-27T13:49:01Z")
My husband just pointed this article out to me, and this thread seems like the spot for it: > **[Well, It Did Happen to Somebody](https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/03/26/AR2008032602971.html)** > > Latest news on the US federal government. Information and analysis of federal legislation, government contracts and regulations. Search for government job openings, career information and federal employee benefits news. It seems that she lifted this story from Olympia Snowe. I think her campaign theme should be _“Foreign Policy Experience You Can Xerox”_. Oh my… ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581/153 "2008-03-27T14:00:47Z")
Not surprising. It would hardly be the first time a Clinton has outright appropriated talking/policy points from a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581/154 "2008-03-27T17:07:14Z")
[Her new response](http://www.borowitzreport.com/): > [@](#): > > Accused in recent days of embellishing her story of a brush with sniper fire in Bosnia, Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton today said “don’t be fooled” by photos showing her being greeted at the airport by a pony-tailed 8-year-old Bosnian girl with a bouquet of flowers. > > “That was no little girl,” Sen. Clinton told reporters in Gary, Indiana. “That was a covert ops midget sniper”… > > Defending his wife against charges that she had yet again fabricated her exploits while First Lady, former President Bill Clinton told CNN’s John King that “Democratic voters have a clear choice this election: do they want a liar or a plagiarist?” > > “Hillary tells some real whoppers, but at least they’re original,” he said. > > In response to a question about whether he believes his wife’s account of the events in Bosnia, Mr. Clinton said, “All I have to say about that is Reverend Wright Reverend Wright Reverend Wright Reverend Wright Reverend Wright.” ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581/155 "2008-03-27T17:56:21Z")
😃😃 And [here](http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/) we have Bill (scrolling necessary), in his well-known finger-waving pose, explaining that after winning numerous primaries where she was predicted to lose (primaries which he specifically recalls), he vaguely states that she only started to lose all these ‘primaries and caucuses and things’ because, well, “she run outta money.” (This grammar from an Oxford scholar, no less. :rolleyes: ) He also talks about how everybody knows they aren’t quitters in his family. (I should say so, given that the world-wide image of him in the Oval Office using a female intern as a humidor and shooting off all over her dress wasn’t sufficient disgrace for him to even _consider_ leaving office.) Then in the following textual description, he postulates: “Apparently it’s okay to say bad things about a girl." Now, leaving aside the incongruity of referring to this sixty-year-old presidential candidate as a ‘girl,’ what kind of attitude is this? Are men all of a sudden supposed to be polite and nice just because she’s a ‘girl’? Doesn’t this fly in the face of what the women’s movement has been telling us lo these many years? Once she’s in the White House, will he be running around lambasting foreign leaders for being ‘mean’ to her or not taking her seriously if they refuse to do what she wants because, after all, she’s just a girl? We’ve seen her standing by her man…keeping her place in ‘his’ family…was she lying about not baking cookies, too? It’s beginning to look like that’s the kind of relationship they really have. Why anybody wants these two back in the White House is an utter mystery to me. ---
**Author:** ![vison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e47774/32.png) [@vison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vison)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581/156 "2008-03-27T18:00:22Z")
[QUOTE= Bill Clinton] “Apparently it’s okay to say bad things about a girl." [/QUOTE] For the luvva pete. For the LUVVA pete. Rendered speechless. Doesn’t happen often. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581/157 "2008-03-27T18:02:35Z")
[QUOTE=vison] For the luvva pete. For the LUVVA pete. Rendered speechless. Doesn’t happen often. [/QUOTE] At this point, I’m just numb. Nothing either Clinton says particularly outrages me anymore…so much of that water’s already washed over my head that more of it only adds to the weight I’m already carrying. But man, that is NOT the way to talk up a campaign that’s supposed to be making feminist history, is it? ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581/158 "2008-03-27T18:02:40Z")
[QUOTE=Starving Artist] he vaguely states that she only started to lose all these ‘primaries and caucuses and things’ because, well, “she run outta money.” (This grammar from an Oxford scholar, no less. :rolleyes: ) [/QUOTE] Everybody knows that the correct construction is “She _done_ run out of money.” ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581/159 "2008-03-27T18:04:09Z")
[QUOTE=Biffy the Elephant Shrew] Everybody knows that the correct construction is “She _done_ run out of money.” [/QUOTE] Carville: “Obama’s gonna R-U-N-N-O-F-T with the nomination!” Bill: “We’re in a tight spot!” ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581/160 "2008-03-27T18:04:13Z")
[QUOTE=Biffy the Elephant Shrew] Everybody knows that the correct construction is “She _done_ run out of money.” [/QUOTE] Hell, yeah! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-and-sniper-fire-in-bosnia-whats-the-defense/442581.md?page=9)