# Hillary Clinton and Mysogyny **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 24, 2022, 7:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482 "2022-11-24T07:37:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482/81 "2022-11-24T19:15:08Z")
You know even in the South American example, she was not alone in her actions. The US attitude and policy towards South and Central America for a very long time is what is fueling the problems there now and immigration here. I’m not excusing her actions, but she wasn’t the first nor the last to use these tactics. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482/82 "2022-11-24T19:54:44Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > I’m not saying you should like her… but why the firm, unrelenting, year-after-year, non-misogynistic, pretty intense **dislike**? My Wife has a “feeling” about Hillary Clinton that she cannot express. The closest she has come is “Spidey Sense”. Mrs. Plant is certainly one of the least misogynistic feeling people I know. I wonder if some of the dislike is for not divorcing Bill, but that does not enter into Mrs. Plant’s feeling. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482/83 "2022-11-24T19:55:19Z")
> [@Sylvanz](#): > > First I said two of them. Exp. 1. was during the campaign. What she said was hyperbole, but it was not untrue. I just don’t see where a male would get the same disdain for stating what appeared to be the obvious at the time. Particularly about a competitor during a campaign. Exp. 3 was a joke, but she’s not allowed to make jokes. I can’t prove that these are sexist attitudes, but they have the appearance of it to me. YMM obviously V. You don’t see where a male would get the same disdain, even though I listed Lieberman, Manchin, and Maher as being more despicable? If you’re not seeing it, that’s on you. > [@Sylvanz](#): > > You know even in the South American example, she was not alone in her actions. The US attitude and policy towards South and Central America for a very long time is what is fueling the problems there now and immigration here. I’m not excusing her actions, but she wasn’t the first nor the last to use these tactics. She is also neither the first nor the last that I criticize for using these tactics. It’s gross to criticize a woman for things you wouldn’t criticize a man for doing. Absolutely agreed. What do you think about someone who _doesn’t_ criticize a woman for things they _would_ criticize a man for doing? Because it sounds like that’s what you’re expecting of folks before you decide they’re not being misogynistic. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482/84 "2022-11-24T20:44:35Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Don’t see where you got that. It was a question, not a conclusion. Hence the question mark, Which you haven’t answered, as you are free to do. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > I don’t think you are reading for comprehension Well you did imply that I am somehow required to convince people of my lack of misogyny. e.g. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > Merely saying “she is a horrible person” convinces no one of your lack of misogyny, or for that matter, hypocrisy. Why not start from the assumption that misogyny is not present until shown otherwise? I come from a country that has had three female PM’s. All have been on the receiving end of harsh criticism and much of that criticism has nothing to do with their sex. There is a world of difference between being criticised _while being a woman_, and being criticised _because you are a woman_. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > And I’m still waiting for your specifics. I don’t need to provide any specifics, I have no strong feelings about her either way but lots of others do and I’m sure you’ve seen their specifics in this thread. Do you think they are all provoked by misogyny? or are some of them valid? ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482/85 "2022-11-24T20:51:06Z")
Progressives/liberals/Democrats often fall prey to a “Catch-22”: compromising with conservatives costs them more liberal support than it gains them conservative support. (Examples include DADT and the Honduran matter). For some reason, the Clintons (both of them) seem to encounter this a lot. It may be because the right had started becoming more lockstep and tribal when she and Bill arrived on the national scene, making conservatives less likely to give Clinton credit when he compromised with them. It may also be her long time in the national spotlight as First Lady, U.S. Senator, and Sec State allowed her to accumulate more baggage (and her detractors to… “detract” her). It’s interesting to consider whether Hillary would have encountered less antipathy (and less misogyny) if her husband had been, say, a law professor in Arkansas (and she an unknown corporate lawyer) when she entered politics in 2000. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482/86 "2022-11-24T20:58:33Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Meanwhile, I couldn’t tell you anything about the spouses of Kamala Harris, Tammy Duckworth, Tammy Baldwin, or Elizabeth Warren, and **the only thing I could tell you about Nancy Pelosi’s husband is that some nutjob attacked him recently. They’ve all gotten to where they have on their own merits, like any politician should** , and I’d be happy to see any of them as President. And the reason I like all of them is that I think that they’re more forceful, and fiercer political fighters, than most of their male colleagues, despite those being supposedly male traits that people disapprove of in women. Pelosi is heir to a long and powerful political dynasty. Her father and brother were both mayor of Baltimore, and she once dated a young bachelor senator (JFK). Connections are as important in politics as money is. It may be that I know this because I live near Baltimore. But a major difference from Hillary’s benefitting (from being married to a POTUS) is that _everybody_ knew about it when Hillary first ran. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482/87 "2022-11-24T21:03:37Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > I don’t need to provide any specifics, I have no strong feelings about her either way but lots of others do and I’m sure you’ve seen their specifics in this thread. Do you think they are all provoked by misogyny? or are some of them valid? None of the specific examples cited seem to me to rate the kind of hatred she elicited – irritating voice? Hawkish? Centrist or even conservative on some issues? Accusations of nepotism? And yet she was definitely vilified and not only from the fascists (I am not calling them republicans any more; when they stop trying to subvert democracy I’ll reconsider). Other politicians with much the same stances were not hated like her. In a culture which is so obviously misogynistic in every direction, I believe that the burden of proof lies in showing one is NOT a misogynist. Because it is the default in this culture. If you don’t think that, well, I refer you to my original post. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482/88 "2022-11-24T21:22:01Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > I believe that the burden of proof lies in showing one is NOT a misogynist. I disagree strongly, the burden of proof lies with the positive claim. How would one go about proving that to your satisfaction? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482/89 "2022-11-24T21:31:12Z")
Did you fall immaculate from heaven? Or maybe you’re a space alien. Anyone born and raised in modern human society, would have to be born of divine miracle to be pure from misogynisy and racism. Indeed, those who deny it are likely to be among the worst kind, because they aren’t on guard against their own overt or covert biases. This demand to “prove” bias that’s baked into out society is something that those who display the worst of those tendencies. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482/90 "2022-11-24T21:59:17Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > How would one go about proving that to your satisfaction? Based on your previous posts, you’d have a long climb. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482/91 "2022-11-24T22:02:50Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Based on your previous posts, you’d have a long climb. What posts are you referring to? Quote them or retract the accusation. You can answer my question or not. How would anyone prove to you that their criticisms are not misogynistic? ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482/92 "2022-11-24T22:18:14Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > This demand to “prove” bias that’s baked into out society is something that those who display the worst of those tendencies. Misogyny is a part of society, as is racism, tribalism and all other forms of prejudice. To deny it exists would be nonsensical. To deny the potential of it in all humans would be nonsensical. But the moment you level a _specific_ accusation at a _specific_ person it is up to you to prove that claim, not for them to prove the negative. Can someone validly criticise Hilary Clinton honestly and sincerely and it not stem from misogyny? That’s the question I pose, and I answer yes. What is your answer? ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482/93 "2022-11-24T22:18:39Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > What posts are you referring to? Quote them or retract the accusation. > > You can answer my question or not. How would anyone prove to you that their criticisms are not misogynistic? You have implied, correct me if I misunderstood this, that the hatred toward Clinton has nothing to do with the fact that she’s a woman, but refuse to say what you base your conclusion on. You say that the burden of proof of bigotry always should lie with the accuser, so you don’t have to provide any kind of an argument for your case. To me, this is the classic stance of a bigot. They invariably refuse to acknowledge their participation in bigotry, and double down if called out on specifics – probably why they never provide them. Since you are talking like a duck and walking like a duck, I’m assuming you’re a duck until proven otherwise. As to the latter question, several posters have mentioned what they dislike about her, specifically, and while I admit of some criticisms, dismiss others as frivolous or exaggerated, I don’t find their opinions sexist per se. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Librarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_librarian/32/402_2.png) [@The\_Librarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Librarian)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482/94 "2022-11-24T22:25:37Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > The “conventional wisdom” that she was distinctly, unusually unlikable was iconstructed in the early 1990s by conservatives looking to tar Hillary. That there has been a decades long campaign to paint her as such is clear. I can see the opposite as well. I clearly remember the first time I saw her on TV. It was the first time I _heard_ of her (in the early '90s). The lady that sat next to Bill Clinton rubbed me wrong, she has a brand of smug that put me of. She will never be likable to me. [I’m in Holland, I’m left of center \_here\_. For most issues that puts me completely out of the US “Overton window”. So I don’t think I’m influenced much by the US right wing. I also think of myself as not misogynist (especially politically) and I can back that up with a lifetime of voting for women.] ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482/95 "2022-11-24T22:29:13Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > You have implied, correct me if I misunderstood this, that the hatred toward Clinton has nothing to do with the fact that she’s a woman You _have_ misunderstood. Some criticisms of Clinton are absolutely based on the fact that she is a woman. Others criticisms are not. If we agree on that then we have no argument. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > but refuse to say what you base your conclusion on. I don’t understand what you are asking here. My conclusion is that not all criticsm of Hilary is based on misogyny. This is something that you have agreed with in this very post i.e. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > several posters have mentioned what they dislike about her, specifically, and while I admit of some criticisms, dismiss others as frivolous or exaggerated, I don’t find their opinions sexist per se. I’m not sure where we disagree. According to you _those_ posters with _those_ criticisms could legitimately say that their criticisms do not stem from misogyny. However, by your own standard, denying any misogyny on their part would be _also_ be evidence of the misogyny that you’ve already admitted does not exist. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > You say that the burden of proof of bigotry always should lie with the accuser correct > [@Ulfreida](#): > > so you don’t have to provide any kind of an argument for your case. I’m not making any case other than it is possible to criticise Hilary Clinton without it being evidence of _de facto_ misogyny. A fact that you have now admitted. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482/96 "2022-11-24T22:38:02Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > To me, this is the classic stance of a bigot. They invariably refuse to acknowledge their participation in bigotry, and double down if called out on specifics – probably why they never provide them Yes it is. Bigots do precisely that. However, denial of bigotry in a specific case can _also_ be absolutely accurate. > [@Ulfreida](#): > > Since you are talking like a duck and walking like a duck, I’m assuming you’re a duck until proven otherwise. And we are back to where we started. The poisonous mindset that thinks denial of wrongdoing is merely greater evidence of it. You still haven’t answered how anyone could prove to you that their criticisms of Hilary do not come from misogyny. You clearly think that some people are in that position. What did they do to convince you? ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482/97 "2022-11-24T22:51:10Z")
> [@Novelty\_Bobble](#): > > You clearly think that some people are in that position. What did they do to convince you? They haven’t exactly convinced me. That would require my knowing more about their other opinions, especiallyh about other women in positions of power. But some of their arguments I believe have legitimacy, such as her well-known hawkishness. That’s something you could dislike about anyone – or like. It’s a purely political opinion. Other things are clearly biased, such as disliking her ambitiousness; since when is that a negative quality in our flavor of politics? Or her speaking voice. Or that she used her position as a popular politician’s wife to advance herself – that would be a legitimate criticism if she had not clearly been uber-competent and hardworking, indeed brilliant compared with the sawdust-for-brains men who occupy many higher offices. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482/98 "2022-11-24T22:56:01Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > They haven’t exactly convinced me. So do you still assume that their criticism stems from misogyny or not? ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482/99 "2022-11-24T23:15:29Z")
I assume _everyone_, particularly but not exclusively males, in this culture, is biased toward men and against women. As I said, it is the default. To not fall into that bias one needs to work very consciously, and continually, on self-examination of your thoughts, speech, and actions, in the light of that default. Clinton was the subject of unrelenting misogyny from her earliest public life. For a criticism of her to not be tainted by this history it would have to be pretty carefully examined. There are of course plenty of legitimate criticisms of her _politics_. She was far from my personal political ideal, being more or less the same as Obama, who was considerably farther to the right than I am. If I think about it, I’d say that to be convincing, a criticism of her would have to be 1. based on something true. 2. based on something serious. 3. based on something which would be exactly as serious in a man. Not much of the criticism of Clinton rises to that level. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2022, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482/100 "2022-11-24T23:58:39Z")
> [@Sylvanz](#): > > It was always the right trashing her for … well … not being male. They hated her for having the gall to be smart, powerful, and good at policy. Yes, there was and still is big time misogyny towards her. And they hate her because they are afraid of her. She doesn’t back down, she doesn’t play the helpless female role, and it drives them nuts. I know plenty of women who have played the helpless game to soothe egos that don’t deserve to be soothed. I’m guilty of having done it. I don’t do it any more and I have lost “friends” for it. It’s really disgusting behavior. Fox News recently published a story about the Idaho college killings, referring to female students as “coeds”, you know, tolerated, looking for an MRS degree, willing to be seen as less then male in order to get what they are after. Irritating AF. I doubt that most of the women see themselves that way. Surely, their must be a way to be a female leader and respected. I suspect it may come to pass only when all leaders are female. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-and-mysogyny/975482.md?page=6)