# Hillary Clinton: Moral of "1984" is "trust your leaders". **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 14, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323 "2017-09-14T15:55:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/21 "2017-09-14T17:06:45Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > From the known fascist sycophant, Hannah Arendt. Can you point out the part in your Hannah Arendt’s quote that talks about the sowing of mistrust in leaders, experts or press? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/22 "2017-09-14T17:10:14Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Can you point out the part in your Hannah Arendt’s quote that talks about the sowing of mistrust in leaders, experts or press? Can you…not? ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/23 "2017-09-14T17:10:54Z")
Hillary Clinton clearly got the message of the book completely bass-awkwards, since the goal of the authorities in 1984 was not to sow distrust towards the leaders or the press and experts that they completely controlled, but there’s no way to contort that statement to say that she’s claiming the message of the book is ‘trust your leaders’, especially since the list of people she thinks they were sowing distrust towards includes ‘ourselves’. Clinton is an awful enough person and candidate that you can find reams of material of bad things about her, I’m not sure why you’d make up something that’s immediately disproved by the quote you try to prove it with. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/24 "2017-09-14T17:11:04Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Neither in Stalin’s Russia nor in 1984 were there any “experts”, “press” or “leaders” accessible to the citizenry that were not controlled by the government, much less from outside the country. Were you aware of that? Because they had alrady been crushed and their works were being thrown down the memory holes. The population was being conditioned to accept only what the Party said right now regardless of evidence _even if previously created by the Party’s own media and experts_ if it stopped being convenient. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/25 "2017-09-14T17:12:46Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > How is that a misreading? Can you explain, in Orwell’s 1984, which “experts”, which “press” and which “leaders” was the disinformation program designed to make the citizens mistrust? Emmanuel Goldstein counts as a leader, surely. The press is depicted as an organ of the state, so there’s no distinct “press” for the state to target. > [@](#): > > Same with the Stalin-era Russia - which “experts”, which “press” and which “leaders” was Stalin’s alteration of reality designed to make the citizenry mistrust? This one’s easier: the victims of the Great Purge; the Russian Orthodox Church (pre-war); the 3,000 biologists imprisoned, killed, or fired for opposition to Lysenkoism, for a start. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/26 "2017-09-14T17:14:24Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Can you…not? Hanna Arendt’s idea was that people mistrusted authoritarian lying leaders. Hillary’s claim is that the point is to make the citizenry mistrust the “good”, democratic, non-lying leaders. How is Arendt’s quote in any way supporting Hillary’s claim? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/27 "2017-09-14T17:15:10Z")
I’m going to agree with the OP on this one. That is a bizarre interpretation of the message of _1984_. Yes, O’Brien’s goal is to make Smith distrust logic and reason. But O’Brien wasn’t trying to sow mistrust in authority. He was doing the opposite by making Smith give blind obedience to authority. Personally, I doubt that’s what Clinton really believes. I feel this was probably just a really poorly written line. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/28 "2017-09-14T17:17:49Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Because they had alrady been crushed and their works were being thrown down the memory holes. The population was being conditioned to accept only what the Party said right now regardless of evidence _even if previously created by the Party’s own media and experts_ if it stopped being convenient. Stalin’s “alteration of reality” and the oppression in general was designed to control and brainwash the population. NOT to “sow mistrust” in press, leaders or experts. Since all the “press, leaders or experts” were the government ones, and the program’s goal (and a hugely successful one, actually) was to make the public trust the government’s leaders, press and experts. Not to mistrust them. Same with 1984. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/29 "2017-09-14T17:19:01Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > Hanna Arendt’s idea was that people mistrusted authoritarian lying leaders. Hillary’s claim is that the point is to make the citizenry mistrust the “good”, democratic, non-lying leaders. How is Arendt’s quote in any way supporting Hillary’s claim? You’ve misunderstood both Arendt and Clinton, actually. Arendt was saying that authoritarian leaders try to sow mistrust of all truth, and they don’t care if that ends up sowing mistrust of themselves, because the destruction of truth and the increase in cynicism ultimately benefits them. Indeed, it establishes and reinforces their power to have them lie to you and you have to accept it. Hillary was paraphrasing that same point. She probably should have cited Arendt (although maybe she did?). ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/30 "2017-09-14T17:19:59Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I can say this has given me something new to think about: namely the possibility that Hillary Clinton sincerely believes that the poor benighted masses are too stupid and gullible to think for themselves, and that it is the noble calling of the experts and leaders to herd guide the public toward the “correct” policy. This is news to you? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/31 "2017-09-14T17:22:50Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > You’ve misunderstood both Arendt and Clinton, actually. > > Arendt was saying that authoritarian leaders try to sow mistrust of all truth, and they don’t care if that ends up sowing mistrust of themselves, because the destruction of truth and the increase in cynicism ultimately benefits them. Indeed, it establishes and reinforces their power to have them lie to you and you have to accept it. The fact is that Stalin’s “alteration of reality” program was hugely successful in brainwashing the general citizenry to trust and have faith in the government and, especially in Stalin’s case, worship the leaders. I don’t think Arendt is correct in her general analysis - maybe that’s the end result in some cases, but definitely not in all, and definitely not the goal. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/32 "2017-09-14T17:26:38Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > I don’t think Arendt is correct in her general analysis - maybe that’s the end result in some cases, but definitely not in all, and definitely not the goal. There are perfectly fair criticisms of Arendt. But my point was that 1984 was making the same argument as Arendt, and Hillary is correctly interpreting 1984. The OP’s reading of Hillary’s comments is incorrect. Hillary appears to understand the book better than OP. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/33 "2017-09-14T17:30:17Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > There are perfectly fair criticisms of Arendt. > > But my point was that 1984 was making the same argument as Arendt I don’t think it was. At least that’s not my reading of the book. And no, Hillary (as others pointed out in this thread) is completely misinterpreting the book. Yes, redifinition of reality is the core feature of authoritarian regimes. No, the goal is not to sow mistrust in the leaders, press or experts - since the leaders, press and experts are of the regime, and another core feature of authoritarian regimes is denying their citizens access to alternative points of view. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/34 "2017-09-14T17:30:18Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Or, and I’m just spitballing here, maybe your hatred of women is sort of coloring your interpretation of their words? Or maybe since I would be perfectly comfortable with Elizabeth Warren or Jill Stein as president, or even Carmen Electra over Hillary, you are just flailing, since your authoritarian old fool lost. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/35 "2017-09-14T17:30:25Z")
I never read the book. But I think I read Moby Dick. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/36 "2017-09-14T17:33:06Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > Or maybe since I would be perfectly comfortable with Elizabeth Warren or Jill Stein as president, or even Carmen Electra over Hillary, you are just flailing, since your authoritarian old fool lost. Uh huh. I’m sure you have female friends too. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/37 "2017-09-14T17:33:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Personally, I doubt that’s what Clinton really believes. I feel this was probably just a really poorly written line. There’s a possibility she didn’t write the line even, but an outsourced ghostwriter did. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/38 "2017-09-14T17:34:18Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > I don’t think it was. At least that’s not my reading of the book. And no, Hillary (as others pointed out in this thread) is completely misinterpreting the book. Nah. Her interpretation is the standard one. [Here’s](https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/26/books/why-1984-is-a-2017-must-read.html?_r=0) Michiko Kakutani on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/39 "2017-09-14T17:35:32Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Uh huh. I’m sure you have female friends too. Don’t you ? ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/40 "2017-09-14T17:37:29Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > I never read the book. But I think I read Moby Dick. About that: in the Nexus ad, isn’t that an awfully jaunty font for old Moby ? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323.md?page=3)