# Hillary Clinton: Moral of "1984" is "trust your leaders". **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 14, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323 "2017-09-14T15:55:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/61 "2017-09-14T23:20:38Z")
> [@Okrahoma](#): > > The fact is that Stalin’s “alteration of reality” program was hugely successful in brainwashing the general citizenry to trust and have faith in the government and, especially in Stalin’s case, worship the leaders. I don’t think Arendt is correct in her general analysis - maybe that’s the end result in some cases, but definitely not in all, and definitely not the goal. It was never my impression that either the goal or the outcome was trust and faith in government; rather, tthe goal was to make the citizenry distrust their own ability to discern and understand reality, to the point that submission was easier than intellectual self-reliance, when it came to getting through the day. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/62 "2017-09-14T23:23:25Z")
Huh. All this time, I thought the point of _Nineteen Eighty-Four_ was “Be yourself.” ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/63 "2017-09-14T23:28:23Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > It was never my impression that either the goal or the outcome was trust and faith in government; rather, tthe goal was to make the citizenry distrust their own ability to discern and understand reality, to the point that submission was easier than intellectual self-reliance, when it came to getting through the day. Aye. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/64 "2017-09-14T23:35:04Z")
OK, I concede that I see now what Clinton was _trying_ to say (and couldn’t have botched it worse). But as **Velocity** pointed out Clinton comes to a thoroughly pre-poisoned well. It hardly helps that she AND Obama before her have come across like missionaries tactlessly denigrating a tribespeoples’ gods and lecturing them on how wrong and evil they are and to abandon the ways of their forefathers. Even if it’s true, that’s not going to win many converts. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2017, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/65 "2017-09-14T23:39:44Z")
I will wholly agree that Clinton has made little to no effort to win ‘converts’ - and in fact the entire liberal side seems to have largely given up making an active effort to do so. The general line of thinking seems to be that if a person hasn’t seen reason by now, they’re unlikely to do so, for one reason or another. That and the fact it’s a little hard to find a middle ground with a group of people who seem to think the middle ground should be razed flat and salted. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/66 "2017-09-15T00:08:58Z")
But we’re still OK with partying like it’s 1999, right? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/67 "2017-09-15T00:14:37Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The problem with Hillary’s 1984 quote is that, to many voters in this country, it is \*her \*political side/party that is the one holding up four fingers and demanding that people say “five.” > > Many Americans consider certain things to be self-evident - i.e., there are only two genders, that men shouldn’t be in women’s restrooms, etc. - and consider the party that says that there are more than two genders, and that transgender women (but biologically men) can go into lady’s restrooms, \*is \*the side that is gaslighting and saying that four is five. Yeah…they want to live in a binary world. Black/white, male/female, right/wrong. They make no allowance for the gray areas and nuance the world holds. So it is more like a world where everyone has four fingers then you show up and hold up five fingers. They cannot process it for some reason. They know people only have four fingers and simply will not allow for a five fingered man…even if he’s standing right in front of them showing five fingers. ---
**Author:** ![Okrahoma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90db22/32.png) [@Okrahoma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Okrahoma)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/68 "2017-09-15T00:27:03Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > It was never my impression that either the goal or the outcome was trust and faith in government; rather, tthe goal was to make the citizenry distrust their own ability to discern and understand reality, to the point that submission was easier than intellectual self-reliance, when it came to getting through the day. You’re not familiar with Stalin’s Russia. Yes, some (few, mostly intellectuals) were discontent. Most were enthusiastic in their support of the Soviet government and worshipful when it came to the leaders. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/69 "2017-09-15T00:59:35Z")
Well, if they didn’t like the great experiment, they weren’t going to spoil it for everybody else by complaining. ---
**Author:** ![drpepper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/8baadc/32.png) [@drpepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drpepper)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/70 "2017-09-15T01:21:33Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > Yeah, Clinton really did drop the ball on this one. Although her conclusions are probably correct she is horribly mixing her metaphors when it comes to describing the idea behind 1984. > > Her logic is basically: > > 1. Trump and the right wind information machine is trying to destroy Americas faith in our leaders, the press, experts who seek to guide public policy based on evidence. TRUE > 2. Trumps use of lies and revisionist history even to the point of saying that he never said things for which there is clear evidence he did is similar to what 1984 was arguing against. TRUE > > Therefore > > 1. 1984 was arguing in favor of having faith in experts, media and leaders. FALSE > > What Trump is actually doing is trying to replace the traditional leaders, the press, experts who seek to guide public policy based on evidence. With his own set of “experts” and leaders who base their policy on political expedience. The climate change and media skeptics who believe that Trump inaguration crowd was bigger that Obama’s, who believe that AnitFa was behind the violence in Chancellorsville, and that a Pizza place in DC is actually the headquarters for child prostitution, aren’t actually free thinkers that Orwell would be in favor of. They are being led by the nose by big brother in the guise of Hannity, Limbaugh and Alex Jones. > > Orwell didn’t advocate in favor of believing and accurate press, good leaders and experts who seek to guide public policy based on evidence because in his world they didn’t exist, and if Trump had his druthers they wouldn’t exist in our world either. Exactly my take on it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/71 "2017-09-15T02:01:25Z")
Trump is more of a Cuffy Meigs than an O’Brien. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/72 "2017-09-15T02:04:34Z")
A part of my cynically wonders if the timing of this book project is a stunt by Hillary to destroy the left, assuming that she feels a sense of betrayal. Let’s face it: at a time when the progressives have the conservatives taking a standing 8-count, there couldn’t be a worse time for Hillary to come to the ringside to distract everyone. ---
**Author:** ![Penfeather](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/penfeather/32/384_2.png) [@Penfeather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Penfeather)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/73 "2017-09-15T09:59:11Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > From the known fascist sycophant, Hannah Arendt. Well, she did shag Martin Heidegger. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/74 "2017-09-15T13:46:38Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > Whoa, hey! He didn’t ask to be called “old,” OK? Jeezus. Now, now. I may just have meant he was the fucker of old goats. So: _[old goat] fucker_ rather than _old [goat fucker]_. And you can’t prove otherwise! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/75 "2017-09-15T14:17:30Z")
Shodan is Gisele Bundchen? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/76 "2017-09-15T18:03:50Z")
May I say I find much to agree with in **Buck Godot** ’s and **Whack-a-Mole** ’s most recent posts as of this reading. A large part of the people are heavily invested in what they see as Received Truths and will not trust any expert or even any actual hard evidence that challenges then, but will welcome a slick charlatan who’ll claim that his bullshit flows from that received truth (even if entirely unrelated). “But, sir, look, there ARE five…” “SHUT UP, there’s four, the other one doesn’t count, some Liberal bastard put it there, says right here on Breitbart.” > [@asahi](#): > > A part of my cynically wonders if the timing of this book project is a stunt by Hillary to destroy the left, assuming that she feels a sense of betrayal. Let’s face it: at a time when the progressives have the conservatives taking a standing 8-count, there couldn’t be a worse time for Hillary to come to the ringside to distract everyone. So maybe she’s joining Trump in taking the position of “it’s all about ME”, and don’t anyone dare and move on until she’s good and ready to let you? Fuck, that’s a depressing thought. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/77 "2017-09-15T19:43:17Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > A part of my cynically wonders if the timing of this book project is a stunt by Hillary to destroy the left, assuming that she feels a sense of betrayal. Nothing so devious. It’s meant to keep her decaying political corpse viable until other 2020 candidates flame out, at which time she can ride her [del]broom[/del] campaign bus to the rescue, unless the Democratic Party has the sense to drive a metaphorical stake through her heart. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/78 "2017-09-15T20:43:58Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > Now, now. I may just have meant he was the fucker of old goats. So: _[old goat] fucker_ rather than _old [goat fucker]_. And you can’t prove otherwise! 😉 Trouble is, any goat over the age of consent is an old goat. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Shodan is Gisele Bundchen? No, can’t be - Gisele has fashion sense. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2017, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/79 "2017-09-15T21:01:27Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Nothing so devious. > > It’s meant to keep her decaying political corpse viable until other 2020 candidates flame out, at which time she can ride her [del]broom[/del] campaign bus to the rescue, unless the Democratic Party has the sense to drive a metaphorical stake through her heart. Charming. Anyway, I think she’s got the message her day is done, and will morosely endorse whomever is selected ( if he or she is Right-Centrist ). But as to the book, whatever her large intelligence — which as much as with most professional politicians is real, and again with each of them is exaggerated by each’s followers — she is not very bright, and I can well believe that’s her takeaway from Orwell. In the 2016 election they had a choice between Sheldon Cooper, self-righteous, conceited and smugly boring, and Cartman from South Park, a truly awful little horror. The only sane choice was to reject Shelly. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/80 "2017-09-16T12:19:26Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Nothing so devious. > > It’s meant to keep her decaying political corpse viable until other 2020 candidates flame out, at which time she can ride her [del]broom[/del] campaign bus to the rescue, unless the Democratic Party has the sense to drive a metaphorical stake through her heart. I think Hillary has to know it’s really and truly over now, and if she doesn’t, then other members of the Democratic party, or whatever’s left of it in 2020, will tell her pretty bluntly, I would imagine. I think the book tour is really her way of processing what happened. She still seems to possess the same lack of self-awareness, so I wouldn’t call this a reckoning; it’s just a personal psychological catharsis. And I’m guessing the book advances and royalties from sales won’t hurt either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323.md?page=5)