# Hillary Clinton: Moral of "1984" is "trust your leaders". **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 14, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323 "2017-09-14T15:55:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/81 "2017-09-16T15:49:50Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > Charming. > > Anyway, I think she’s got the message her day is done, and will morosely endorse whomever is selected ( if he or she is Right-Centrist ). But as to the book, whatever her large intelligence — which as much as with most professional politicians is real, and again with each of them is exaggerated by each’s followers — she is not very bright, and I can well believe that’s her takeaway from Orwell. > In the 2016 election they had a choice between Sheldon Cooper, self-righteous, conceited and smugly boring, and Cartman from South Park, a truly awful little horror. **The only sane choice was to reject Shelly.** I’m not endorsing your metaphor for the choices, but even if doing so for the sake of argument, that conclusion is absolute BULLSHIT. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/82 "2017-09-16T16:29:52Z")
> [@Evan\_Drake](#): > > In the 2016 election they had a choice between Sheldon Cooper, self-righteous, conceited and smugly boring, and Cartman from South Park, a truly awful little horror. The only sane choice was to reject Shelly. Seriously? I hope that definition of “sane” never replaces the M’Naughten Rule. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/83 "2017-09-16T19:19:56Z")
I think at some point you have to realize that you live in a specialized society. I like it that commercial airlines only allow people with special training and proven skills to fly their passenger planes. Even though expert pilots have made mistakes. Some of them have made serious mistakes. I don’t think the answer is to let people without experience pilot commercial aircraft. I trust commercial pilots to do a better job of flying planes than some guy off the street. Now, even though I believe this that doesn’t mean I have elevated the airline pilot to some sort of Godlike status. I’d be an idiot to let him take out my tonsils. Or to code the next version of Windows. Or to run a Fortune 500 company. Because trust isn’t a black and white concept. One can but a limited amount of trust in an expert’s special skills without abdicating their own critical thinking skills and self-reliance. Interesting ( to some) side note: There is a great book on Putin’s Russia called " Nothing is True and Everything is Possible - the Surreal Heart of the New Russia". > **[Amazon.com: Nothing Is True and Everything Is Possible: The Surreal Heart of the...](https://www.amazon.com/Nothing-True-Everything-Possible-Surreal-ebook/dp/B00L4FSVZ6)** > > Buy Nothing Is True and Everything Is Possible: The Surreal Heart of the New Russia: Read Books Reviews - Amazon.com Trump and Putin really do have a lot in common. . ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/84 "2017-09-16T19:43:25Z")
And the Left are the scrupulous champions of objective truth? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/85 "2017-09-16T20:11:27Z")
Take away the question mark, and its a stupid statement. As it stands, its just a stupid question. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/86 "2017-09-16T20:16:47Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > A large part of the people are heavily invested in what they see as Received Truths and will not trust any expert or even any actual hard evidence that challenges then, but will welcome a slick charlatan who’ll claim that his bullshit flows from that received truth (even if entirely unrelated). > “But, sir, look, there ARE five…” “SHUT UP, there’s four, the other one doesn’t count, some Liberal bastard put it there, says right here on Breitbart.” Which of course leaves the Dems with two alternatives, either they pander to their false beliefs and creat policy around the fact that all human beings have 4 fingers, or else they try to tell them otherwise in which case they are accused to be condescending elitists, who are out of touch with “real” America. > [@Lumpy](#): > > And the Left are the scrupulous champions of objective truth? No,[but in comparison…](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8WeGqJMen8) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/87 "2017-09-16T21:06:55Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > And the Left are the scrupulous champions of objective truth? Of course not. But that’s a pointless argument. Perfection doesn’t exist in the real world. The real world question is “Do the Democrats generally stay closer to the objective truth than the Republicans do?” and I think the answer is yes. I see a significant difference between the two parties on the issue of honesty. I’d go farther and say that the Republican Party has pretty much abandoned truth for believability. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/88 "2017-09-16T22:45:34Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I can say this has given me something new to think about: namely the possibility that Hillary Clinton **sincerely believes** that the poor benighted masses are too stupid and gullible to think for themselves, and that it is the noble calling of the experts and leaders to [del]herd[/del] guide the public toward the “correct” policy. A fine example of what Asimov talked about here: > [@Isaac Asimov](#): > > There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that “my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/89 "2017-09-16T23:05:59Z")
The trouble here is conflating the ‘Left’ from socialism to anarchism with Hillary’s neo-liberal centrism. She has more in common with her admired Reagan than Alinsky. Which means Americans are generally offered a choice between anthracite coal and coke. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2017, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/90 "2017-09-16T23:28:01Z")
I’m reminded of the _ **Star Trek: The Original Series** _ episode “The Galileo Seven”. I believe it is canon that this is the very first time Spock has been in independent command of the human crew members under him- whom he does not handle well. Caught in a desperate situation in which maximizing the chances of survival is paramount, Spock does all the correct, logical things; but the humans see this as nothing more than heartlessness. Spock simply doesn’t know how to help the party deal with the emotional side of their plight: fear, grief, anger. It’s a safe bet that if it had been Kirk in his place, even if he’d had to take a hard line he’d have found a way to comfort and reassure the shuttle party. The Democratic Party has been unable to address conservative America except to tell them to stop being ignorant bigots. Which is about as helpful as Spock telling the shuttle party that so-and-so is dead, there’s nothing more to be done about it, get back to work. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2017, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/91 "2017-09-17T02:00:23Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > I’m reminded of the _ **Star Trek: The Original Series** _ episode “The Galileo Seven”. I believe it is canon that this is the very first time Spock has been in independent command of the human crew members under him- whom he does not handle well. Caught in a desperate situation in which maximizing the chances of survival is paramount, Spock does all the correct, logical things; but the humans see this as nothing more than heartlessness. Spock simply doesn’t know how to help the party deal with the emotional side of their plight: fear, grief, anger. It’s a safe bet that if it had been Kirk in his place, even if he’d had to take a hard line he’d have found a way to comfort and reassure the shuttle party. > > The Democratic Party has been unable to address conservative America except to tell them to stop being ignorant bigots. Which is about as helpful as Spock telling the shuttle party that so-and-so is dead, there’s nothing more to be done about it, get back to work. It’s not the same situation. Our current political situation is that the shuttle craft pilot wants to fly back and “rescue” the crewman who got left behind. Do you indulge the shuttle pilot’s belief and tell him _“Yeah, you’re right. I’m sure Jones is alive. We should go back and save him.”_ Or do you say _“Listen, we all saw Jones get speared by those aliens. There’s no way he survived. He’s dead. And if we pretend he’s alive and go back to look for him, several more people will get killed as well.”_ Sometimes you have to tell people things they don’t want to hear in order to help them. And sometimes you have to say it really bluntly because people try to avoid listening to things they don’t want to hear. Being an ignorant bigot is not a good thing. If you indulge people who are ignorant bigots, the best outcome you can hope for is that they remain ignorant bigots but don’t ever harm anybody. The worst case scenario is they spread their ignorant bigotry and/or start harming people because of it. Or would you rather help them? If you want to help them, the first thing you need to do is tell them that there’s a problem. Telling them they’re ignorant bigots is the first step to helping them to stop being ignorant bigots. They may not want to hear it but you’re not doing them any favors by lying to them. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2017, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/92 "2017-09-17T14:04:58Z")
I was in a bookstore yesterday, saw a copy of “What Happened” and flipped it open at random. In just those two pages I learned that Clinton acknowledged her mistake over the e-mail thing and _apologized_. Critics pounced, so she _apologized again_. They still wouldn’t let it go! And that Matt Lauer, allowing a military type on a Q&A panel to ask Hillary a hostile question! Why, Lauer might just as well have been a paid adjunct to the Trump campaign! With revelations like that, Hillary will undoubtedly succeed in rehabilitating her image, and her nasty opponents should just stifle. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2017, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/93 "2017-09-17T16:30:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Or would you rather help them? If you want to help them, the first thing you need to do is tell them that there’s a problem. Telling them they’re ignorant bigots is the first step to helping them to stop being ignorant bigots. They may not want to hear it but you’re not doing them any favors by lying to them. Start by accepting that there are deeper reasons for conservatives holding the values they do _ **other than** _ ignorance and bigotry, and try to address those reasons. Or else don’t be surprised, as the missionaries in my previous post, when the natives start sharpening their spears and putting a big cauldron the fire to boil. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2017, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/94 "2017-09-18T23:55:41Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Start by accepting that there are deeper reasons for conservatives holding the values they do _ **other than** _ ignorance and bigotry, and try to address those reasons. Or else don’t be surprised, as the missionaries in my previous post, when the natives start sharpening their spears and putting a big cauldron the fire to boil. Of course it’s not all ignorance and bigotry; don’t be silly. There’s also greed, anger, fear, and desperate belief in the promises of their leaders. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/95 "2017-09-19T00:07:29Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Start by accepting that there are deeper reasons for conservatives holding the values they do _ **other than** _ ignorance and bigotry, and try to address those reasons. Or else don’t be surprised, as the missionaries in my previous post, when the natives start sharpening their spears and putting a big cauldron the fire to boil. There are deeper reasons for being conservative than ignorance and bigotry. There are NOT deeper reasons for being Republican. In order to do so, you must, at the very least, accept the bigotry and ignorance of those in charge of your party. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/96 "2017-09-19T02:11:10Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Start by accepting that there are deeper reasons for conservatives holding the values they do _ **other than** _ ignorance and bigotry, and try to address those reasons. Or else don’t be surprised, as the missionaries in my previous post, when the natives start sharpening their spears and putting a big cauldron the fire to boil. I’d be happy to engage in this dialogue. But you need to start it by naming some of the conservative beliefs that don’t end up going back to ignorance or bigotry or both. ---
**Author:** ![Novelty\_Bobble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Novelty\_Bobble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Novelty_Bobble)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/97 "2017-09-19T07:45:53Z")
It is a clumsy construction rather than outright wrong. She made the 1984 reference too early in that paragraph. Had she said that people were working now to drive mistrust in reality, reason, experts, leaders, ourselves etc. and to offer instead an official reality that they control…and _then_ mentioned how that leads to a 1984-style scenario, I think it would have made more sense. Mind you, the irony of a politician of any stripe making those comparisons is probably lost on her and may be indicative of why she lost. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 9:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/98 "2017-09-19T09:38:56Z")
We’re seeing a lot of “Clinton is being misquoted” complaints from Democrats in recent days. Perhaps if she could speak and write clearly this wouldn’t be an issue. The really clumsy 1984 reference really should have been redlined by an editor. Even removing the “leaders” part, it still has little to do with 1984. It would be like writing that Beyonce’s Single Ladies is about how important pretty rings are. ---
**Author:** ![Evan\_Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b487fb/32.png) [@Evan\_Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evan_Drake)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/99 "2017-09-19T10:13:36Z")
She is misquoted by those who deliberately quote what she said any time over a week ago without checking in as to what she _currently_ is saying. And to whom. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2017, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323/100 "2017-09-19T10:32:31Z")
That’s her other problem. “The only position that matters is the last position I took.” Look, when you write a book or get quoted by the media, people are going to make fun of you when you say stupid things. I don’t think Clinton ACTUALLY believes that the moral of 1984 is to trust your leaders. I don’t think Clinton actually intends to contest the 2016 election. But I can make fun of her for saying and writing dumb things in that regard. And I can make fun of her defenders for rushing to her defense when it’s really not needed. Hillary Clinton writes and says dumb things. The fact that she’s so heavily scripted and careful and STILL is a gaffe machine is worthy of mockery. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clinton-moral-of-1984-is-trust-your-leaders/796323.md?page=6)