# Hillary Clinton's Presidential Campaign Discussion **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [May 4, 2016, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873 "2016-05-04T11:09:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 49
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/961 "2016-09-06T00:14:17Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > They don’t seem to do all that good of a job of it. For example, here are their ratings on ObamaCare: > > [2008: “if you’ve got a health care plan that you like, you can keep it” = “True”](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2008/oct/09/barack-obama/obamas-plan-expands-existing-system/) > > [2009: “If you like your health care plan, you can keep your health care plan” = “Half True”](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/aug/11/barack-obama/barack-obama-promises-you-can-keep-your-health-ins/) > > [2012: “If you’re one of the more than 250 million Americans who already have health insurance, you will keep your health insurance” = “Half True”](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jun/29/barack-obama/barack-obama-says-under-his-health-care-law-those-/) > > [2013: “If you like your health care plan, you can keep it” = “Lie of the Year”](http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2013/dec/12/lie-year-if-you-like-your-health-care-plan-keep-it/) > > That’s quite a lot of … ummm … evolution, for something that’s supposed to be “of a clearly factual nature”, don’t you think? Actual story headlines of the first three. “Obama’s plan expands existing system.” “Barack Obama promises you can keep your health insurance, but there’s no guarantee.” “Barack Obama says that under his health care law, those who have health insurance will keep it.” And each was factual at the time. Or half factual. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/962 "2016-09-06T00:30:05Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Sometimes the facts change. But that last one was hyperbole on the part of Politifact – for the vast majority of people, Obama was correct. That there are a small number for whom that isn’t true doesn’t make the statement a terrible lie. > > But anyway, if you think their ratings of Trump and Hillary are no good, then prove it – show the statements of Trump and Hillary that they rated incorrectly. I think the idea of comparing totals of _statements which Politifact chose to rate_ is an entirely pointless exercise if you’re trying to extrapolate from that analysis something broader like “which candidate is more honest and trustworthy”. [This blog post](http://www.politifactbias.com/2012/01/ranting-and-rating-why-politifacts.html) explains it far more articulately than I can (but I have tried to explain it here). ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/963 "2016-09-06T00:34:35Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think the idea of comparing totals of _statements which Politifact chose to rate_ is an entirely pointless exercise if you’re trying to extrapolate from that analysis something broader like “which candidate is more honest and trustworthy”. [This blog post](http://www.politifactbias.com/2012/01/ranting-and-rating-why-politifacts.html) explains it far more articulately than I can (but I have tried to explain it here). So by posting that, you admit you can’t really show the bias you’re claiming. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/964 "2016-09-06T00:37:02Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > That’s quite a lot of … ummm … evolution, for something that’s supposed to be “of a clearly factual nature”, don’t you think? If i promise not to stab you in the dick it will be true until the day i actually stab you in the dick. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/965 "2016-09-06T00:39:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think the idea of comparing totals of _statements which Politifact chose to rate_ is an entirely pointless exercise if you’re trying to extrapolate from that analysis something broader like “which candidate is more honest and trustworthy”. [This blog post](http://www.politifactbias.com/2012/01/ranting-and-rating-why-politifacts.html) explains it far more articulately than I can (but I have tried to explain it here). More like sour grapes, the writer there complained that more people that ask questions to Politifact will come from the left side of the spectrum, it may be so, but the flaw is that Clinton did get ding several times and the article does not deal with Trump or Clinton and it is coming from a site **specifically** made to discredit Politifact. You are just nut picking and reaching the bottom of the barrel to press your point. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/966 "2016-09-06T00:39:30Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > She has Donald Trump for an opponent and she can’t put him away. Neither could win without the other. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/967 "2016-09-06T00:46:52Z")
I did also check what that anti politifact site was up to, and their more recent effort promised to make notes about how Politifact is wrong about his methods, based on their video it is clear that the makers of the site are just clowns and they really do not have any serious desire to criticize properly the people at Politifact. It is a typical hatchet job site made by right wingers. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/968 "2016-09-06T00:55:21Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Which is why the fact Clinton is dishonest should not need to be rebutted. Dream on. Here, arguments need to be supported by reality. And you ain’t got. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/969 "2016-09-06T00:57:10Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I think the idea of comparing totals of _statements which Politifact chose to rate_ is an entirely pointless exercise if you’re trying to extrapolate from that analysis something broader like “which candidate is more honest and trustworthy”. [This blog post](http://www.politifactbias.com/2012/01/ranting-and-rating-why-politifacts.html) explains it far more articulately than I can (but I have tried to explain it here). So you got nothing. Just please consider that maybe it’s not a coincidence that the actual fact checking organizations seem to say that Trump lies a ton while Hillary lies less often. Maybe your news sources aren’t giving you the best information. Are you really surprised that someone who repeatedly questioned Obama’s birthplace with zero evidence, and said that his investigators were finding incredible things (while never saying what they found) in Hawaii, is rated as rather dishonest by fact checkers? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/970 "2016-09-06T00:58:48Z")
I’m quite comfortable with the current state of affairs: a majority of Dopers think Clinton is honest and trustworthy and a majority of likely voters think she is not. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/971 "2016-09-06T01:00:46Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m quite comfortable with the current state of affairs: a majority of Dopers think Clinton is honest and trustworthy and a majority of likely voters think she is not. Is truth and fact important to you as well? And please cite that “a majority of Dopers think Clinton is honest and trustworthy”, or is this another example of a conservative Doper with psychic abilities? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/972 "2016-09-06T01:04:25Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m quite comfortable with the current state of affairs: a majority of Dopers think Clinton is honest and trustworthy and a majority of likely voters think she is not. Cite on both claims, please. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/973 "2016-09-06T01:06:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Is truth and fact important to you as well? And please cite that “a majority of Dopers think Clinton is honest and trustworthy”, or is this another example of a conservative Doper with psychic abilities? Sorry, no cite for that. I was just making a snap judgement off the posts in the last few pages of this thread, which is admittedly a subset of dopers, and some conjecture based off the positions their posts take, since I don’t have an actual poll. Maybe most of you think she’s dishonest and untrustworthy, like most likely voters? I certainly hope that’s the case. If I’m wrong, consider me happily wrong. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/974 "2016-09-06T01:07:52Z")
It’s not just a “subset of Dopers”, it’s a “subset of Dopers who are talking about Hillary’s campaign”. :rolleyes: And Hillary Clinton? Fine, I consider her as honest as: George W. Bush, ex-head of the CIA Barack Obama Gerald R. Ford More honest than: Bill Clinton Ronald Reagan Richard Nixon Lyndon Johnson George H. W. Bush And less honest than: Jimmy Carter (Those are the Presidents of my lifetime. Not going back further.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/975 "2016-09-06T01:08:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Sorry, no cite for that. I was just making a snap judgement off the posts in the last few pages of this thread, which is admittedly a subset of dopers, and some conjecture based off the positions their posts take, since I don’t have an actual poll. Maybe most of you think she’s dishonest and untrustworthy, like most likely voters? I certainly hope that’s the case. If I’m wrong, consider me happily wrong. There’s a grey area – sometimes she’s dishonest, and I think she’s more trustworthy on some things and less so on other things. In both qualities I think she’s far, far better than Trump. I wouldn’t be able to answer in a yes/no fashion, since neither answer fits how I feel about her. I’m not sure if there’s a single politician in American history for whom I’d be comfortable answering “yes” on this. As for your wrongness, hopefully it will encourage you to refrain from saying things about other Dopers without any actual evidence for it. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/976 "2016-09-06T01:09:38Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m quite comfortable with the current state of affairs: a majority of Dopers think Clinton is honest and trustworthy and a majority of likely voters think she is not. The current state of affairs leads to a decisive Democrat win. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/977 "2016-09-06T01:09:41Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > I’m quite comfortable with the current state of affairs: a majority of Dopers think Clinton is honest and trustworthy and a majority of likely voters think she is not. Point of order, you said that **some** polls do, even what you said showed that you are getting it wrong now. Indeed one can not say that a majority is when not all polls tell us that is the case, but not all of them do and more voters are likely to vote for Clinton still. [http://www.suffolk.edu/news/67378.php](http://www.suffolk.edu/news/67378.php) > [@](#): > > Voters indicate that they have trust issues with both major-party candidates, with 61 percent saying Trump is not honest and trustworthy and 59 percent saying the same of Clinton. > [@](#): > > Democrat Hillary Clinton leads Republican Donald Trump by 7 points nationwide, according to a Suffolk University/USA Today poll of voters likely to cast ballots in the November presidential election. Clinton (48 percent) led Trump (41 percent), with 9 percent undecided in the two-way ballot test. > > In a four-way scenario that includes Libertarian Gary Johnson and Green Party nominee Jill Stein, Clinton maintained a 7-point advantage, 42 percent to Trump’s 35 percent; Johnson was at 9 percent; Stein, 4 percent; with 10 percent undecided. As a majority of dopers will do. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/978 "2016-09-06T01:10:13Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Cite on both claims, please. As for the latter portion, see [the latest IBD/TIPP poll](http://www.investors.com/politics/clinton-and-trump-are-tied-in-latest-ibdtipp-poll/): > [@](#): > > … nearly two thirds (62%) now say Clinton is “not honest or trustworthy,” up from 58% in last month’s poll. As for the claim about Dopers, I don’t have a cite, and I’d be delighted to be wrong about that, and in the company of so many Hillary skeptics. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/979 "2016-09-06T01:19:23Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Indeed one can not say that a majority is when not all polls tell us that is the case… > [@GIGObuster](#): > > … more voters are likely to vote for Clinton still. Something about this post seems … [inconsistent](http://graphics.latimes.com/usc-presidential-poll-dashboard/). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/980 "2016-09-06T01:22:14Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > As for the latter portion, see [the latest IBD/TIPP poll](http://www.investors.com/politics/clinton-and-trump-are-tied-in-latest-ibdtipp-poll/): :rolleyes: Read my post again, you are wrong or incomplete in your say so. And even you called yourself incomplete based on what you told us early; again you said some polls do tell us that, going from there to tell us that the majority are thinking that way was wrong. You need to get much more than just **one** poll **just to claim** who is very likely to be seen as more trustworthy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873.md?page=48) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873.md?page=50)