# Hillary Clinton's Presidential Campaign Discussion

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873>\
**Category:** Politics & Elections\
**Created:** [May 4, 2016, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873 "2016-05-04T11:09:36Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 68

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**Author:** ![ganthet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de0a6/32.png) [@ganthet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ganthet)\
**Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/1341 "2016-09-15T04:29:19Z")

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> [@ChickenLegs](#):
>
> I’ve provided the proof, and explained why. I didn’t say Donald Trump hasn’t lied.
> 
> Sure, other politicians lie. But the the others lie in an attempt to exaggerate their value, or to gain a political edge. Clinton seems to instinctively lie about BS stuff. Compulsively.

There is good reason why Clinton’s trustworthiness ratings are very low and questions about her character have persisted. Clinton, however, is not the one who bullshits instinctively and essentially makes it a lifestyle choice.

The professor who wrote the insightful (and short!) book “On Bullshit” defined the difference between a liar and a bullshitter pretty well:

[QUOTE=Harry Frankfurt]  
The distinction between lying and bullshitting is fairly clear. The liar asserts something which he himself believes to be false. He deliberately misrepresents what he takes to be the truth. The bullshitter, on the other hand, is not constrained by any consideration of what may or may not be true. In making his assertion, he is indifferent to whether what he is says is true or false. His goal is not to report facts. It is, rather, to shape the beliefs and attitudes of his listeners in a certain way.  
[/QUOTE]

The sad truth is pretty much everyone lies at one point or another in their life. Doesn’t make it right or acceptable, and Clinton seems to have done it or danced on its edge enough times, albeit selectively, to warrant serious skepticism from here on out. She is not a bullshitter, though. Trump is in a universe of his own in that respect.

Normal candidates, like Clinton, usually have a few big lies to their name - from Nixon’s secret war in Laos and Cambodia while campaigning to end the war to Reagan and Iran-Contra to George H.W. Bush’s no new taxes pledge to Bill Clinton’s infamous press conference about Monica. Trump lives a lie though, since he seems to view every time he opens his mouth as another opportunity for salesmanship and “puffery:”

Meeting (and then definitely) not meeting Putin on 60 Minutes. John Miller/Baron as his trusted PR person talking to reporters. His assurance in 2011 that his investigators in Hawaii tracking down Obama’s real origin “couldn’t believe what they were finding” and his promise to reveal all the dirty details soon. Trump’s own admission in a deposition for a lawsuit that his own estimate of his net worth fluctuates not based on facts and figures, assets or losses, but his own feelings any given day. That American muslims celebrated 9/11 that day by the thousands. Trump saying that it was well established that he was against the 2003 Iraq war from the beginning and that he foresaw that it would destabilize the Middle East.

His own supporters think his claim about building the wall isn’t real. Trump has no credibility. Clinton has a little.

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**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\
**Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/1342 "2016-09-15T05:04:29Z")

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So, maybe his suggestion that he would start a war with Iran if somebody flipped America the bird, that may be just a lie? Well, good. I guess. Sorta. Kinda.

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**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\
**Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/1343 "2016-09-15T05:19:09Z")

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> [@ChickenLegs](#):
>
> I was responding to this question:
> 
> “So, again, where’s the proof that Hillary Clinton is a serial liar? Or needs to be called out above all other politicians for her rampant lies?”
> 
> I’ve provided the proof, and explained why. I didn’t say Donald Trump hasn’t lied.
> 
> Sure, other politicians lie. But the the others lie in an attempt to exaggerate their value, or to gain a political edge. Clinton seems to instinctively lie about BS stuff. Compulsively.

But not only is it trivial to point out similar examples among other people (remember Brian Williams’s Iraq helicopter story?), but you offer absolutely no reason why:  
A) Clinton’s lies belong to the latter category rather than the former or  
B) the latter category is somehow more important

Let’s be perfectly honest here - I’d much _prefer_ a candidate who “instinctively lies about BS stuff” but is honest and on-point with their policy details over a candidate who constantly lies in self-aggrandizing ways about themselves, their plans, their opponents’ plans, and their policies.

And what’s more, the lies you cited can mostly be grouped into the former camp anyways - again, let’s go down the list:

- Bosnian airport sniper fire. \<- Obviously self-aggrandizement
- Named after Sir Edmund Hillary. \<- A story her mother told her that may or may not have been true and she didn’t fact-check
- Husband not guilty, it was a vast right wing conspiracy. \<- Self-aggrandizement, covering one’s own or one’s family’s ass, and I’m not entirely sure if this was a _lie_, given that the context is missing, and that there very much is a very real cottage industry dedicated to knocking the Clintons down a peg.
- Turned down by the marines. \<- _Obvious_ self-aggrandizement. C’mon now, what else do you think the point of this statement is?
- The Clintons were flat broke when they left the white house. \<- ass-covering
- Numerous documented email lies. \<- ass-covering

None of these lies are any more compulsive or meaningless than Trump’s lie about, oh, say, the NFL sending him an email. They’re considerably _less_ meaningless or compulsive than his lie about Saddam Hussein being really good at killing terrorists, or his lie about Putin being a better leader than Obama, or any number of other lies Trump made about bullshit topics.

And remember: you’re saying she needs to be called out _above all other politicians_. Not just that she should be called out for her lies, but that she should be given special scrutiny, and that she’s _abnormally_ dishonest. Now, by all means, call her out on her lies; unlike the average Trump supporter, I _care_ if my candidate lies, and will gladly hold her feet to the fire on these issues.

But she’s not the abnormal liar in this race. That’s Trump. She’s not the one who lies every five minutes in her stump speeches. That’s Trump. She’s not the one virtually every fact-checking organization has described as unprecedented. That’s Trump. She’s not the one who constantly and consistently lies about her policy details, whether she has policy details, what her plan is, and more. That’s Trump. She’s not the one for whom I can’t find a _single_ policy proposal he hasn’t lied about or flip-flopped on in some substantial way. That’s still Trump.

Any claim you make about Clinton being a serial liar, any criteria you apply there, apply to Trump thousandfold. Wanna stick around and put that to the test?

> [@](#):
>
> But you guys aren’t normal Americans. Normal Americans have an edge over the rabid partisan excuse makers here: they see Clinton for a liar just as clearly as they see that guy in the bar.
> 
> That’s why you may well lose this - your candidates lies are bad enough on their own, but her defenders’ attempts to excuse them are even worse. “You would clearly see that these lies aren’t really so bad, if you were only as smart as us” isn’t gaining many voters.

This sort of partisan sniping would be a whole lot more meaningful if it had any relationship to reality. If you can’t see Trump for the greater liar, you might wanna step _back_ from the bar. Buddy, newsflash: we vote. We _are_ “normal Americans”. We’re just not _your_ kind of “normal Americans”. Wonder why that is.

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**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\
**Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/1344 "2016-09-15T06:08:09Z")

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> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> He had said Clinton’s minority supporters, not Trump’s. Reread the post you quoted.
> 
> It brings me a lot of delight to read the parsing here and be reminded of one of Nate Silver’s more recent and immense failures as an election prognosticator.

You mean, the polls that said that Trump would win?

Plus, Silver is the guy giving the Republicans the greatest chance. Hell, he went and did a presentation behind closed doors to the GOP here recently.

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**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\
**Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/1345 "2016-09-15T07:28:06Z")

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I’m disconcerted by [this Huma Abedin thing](http://www.snopes.com/2016/08/22/huma-abedin-muslim-journal/), which I just heard about tonight for the first time. I would feel a lot better if Hillary would just fire her, say “I’m sorry if you weren’t really editing that publication and didn’t know what kinds of articles it was publishing, but this looks really bad and it doesn’t help to say you were claiming credit for work you didn’t do, even if people believed that.”

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**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\
**Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/1346 "2016-09-15T09:27:03Z")

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> [@HurricaneDitka](#):
>
> He had said Clinton’s minority supporters, not Trump’s. Reread the post you quoted.

Just did - his first statement was about Trump’s white supporters, which is what I was responding to.

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**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\
**Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/1347 "2016-09-15T10:13:15Z")

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What other kind is there?

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**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\
**Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/1348 "2016-09-15T11:04:10Z")

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> [@SlackerInc](#):
>
> I’m disconcerted by [this Huma Abedin thing](http://www.snopes.com/2016/08/22/huma-abedin-muslim-journal/), which I just heard about tonight for the first time. I would feel a lot better if Hillary would just fire her, say “I’m sorry if you weren’t really editing that publication and didn’t know what kinds of articles it was publishing, but this looks really bad and it doesn’t help to say you were claiming credit for work you didn’t do, even if people believed that.”

That’s snopes version of _The Onion_. Read more carefully.

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**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\
**Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/1349 "2016-09-15T12:06:07Z")

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> [@samclem](#):
>
> That’s snopes version of _The Onion_. Read more carefully.

I don’t think it is. That’s The Repository Of Lost Legends. This is in their normal election section.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\
**Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/1350 "2016-09-15T13:21:59Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> …Jeff Zarronandia is the pseudonym of J. Eff Zarronandia, an American author and journalist who won the Pulitzer Prize for numismatics in 2006 and was one of four finalists for the prize in 2008. He was also the winner of the Distinguished Conflagration Award of the American Society of Muleskinners for 2005…

Comment is superfluous.

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**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\
**Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/1351 "2016-09-15T17:16:11Z")

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> [@ChickenLegs](#):
>
> I was responding to this question:
> 
> “So, again, where’s the proof that Hillary Clinton is a serial liar? Or needs to be called out above all other politicians for her rampant lies?”
> 
> I’ve provided the proof, and explained why. I didn’t say Donald Trump hasn’t lied.  
> .

No, you havent. Sure, all Politicos are caught out once in a while, Clinton among them, no doubt. But you have not shown, even to a tiny bit, how “above all other politicians” . And, there’s no “proof”.:rolleyes: At all.

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**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\
**Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/1352 "2016-09-15T17:34:00Z")

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> [@asahi](#):
>
> Yes, there are conspiracy theorists, but there are a lot of voters whose minds are not yet made up. Clinton could just be more transparent.

_Clinton_ could be more transparent?

Of the two candidates, which has released actual medical records?

Of the two candidates, which has released their tax returns?

It constantly baffles me how Trump is a serial liar and con man, with shady dealings and Russian contracts and questionable businesses going back decades; but \*Clinton \*is the one who needs to be more transparent.

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**Author:** ![Poto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ab992/32.png) [@Poto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poto)\
**Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/1353 "2016-09-15T18:26:29Z")

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This just in:  
Bill forced to go on campaign trail to avoid answering “does this pantsuit make my ass look big?”

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\
**Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/1354 "2016-09-15T18:28:47Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> … but Clinton is the one who needs to be more transparent.

Because she isn’t trustworthy! Trump is a lying sack and totally upfront about it! That is a refreshing honesty that Hillary can’t match!

If Trump loses, he will still have a database of people who are totally gullible and will believe that you are a Nigerian prince. That will be worth $ billions!

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**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\
**Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/1355 "2016-09-15T18:35:18Z")

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> [@adaher](#):
>
> It really is about time that people stopped using fact checking sites as a proxy for honesty. The Dope is supposed to be better than that. A conservative using such shoddy methodology to prove the relative honesty of his candidate would be flayed mercilessly.

People are confusing necessity with sufficiency. A high fact-checker rating isn’t _sufficient_ to prove honesty, but it is _necessary_ to establish it. That is to say, Hillary’s high Politifact rating doesn’t mean that she’s honest, but Trump’s low Politifact rating definitely proves that he is **not**.

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**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\
**Post date:** [September 15, 2016, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/1356 "2016-09-15T19:22:49Z")

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> [@elucidator](#):
>
> Comment is superfluous.

Since when has that ever stopped us before?

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**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\
**Post date:** [September 16, 2016, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/1357 "2016-09-16T03:11:10Z")

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> [@Reyemile](#):
>
> People are confusing necessity with sufficiency. A high fact-checker rating isn’t _sufficient_ to prove honesty, but it is _necessary_ to establish it. That is to say, Hillary’s high Politifact rating doesn’t mean that she’s honest, but Trump’s low Politifact rating definitely proves that he is **not**.

Even there though it’s not sufficient to just use the ratings. Check out Joe Biden’s “Pants on fire” statements. Now Joe Biden is one of the guys I’d think we’d all agree is a good example of honest but often very careless, but Politifact has really screwed him a couple of times, giving him a “Pants on fire” rating for saying GWB was “brain dead”. Why Politifact would even rate such a statement is beyond me.

> **[Fact-checks | PolitiFact](https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/list/?speaker=joe-biden&ruling=pants-fire)**
>
> PolitiFact is a fact-checking website that rates the accuracy of claims by elected officials and others on its Truth-O-Meter.

He also got a Pants on Fire rating for exaggerating the effects of a sneeze on an aircraft and for his personal judgment of Rudy Giuliani’s experience. I’d actually say he doesn’t deserve any of those Pants on Fire ratings.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\
**Post date:** [September 16, 2016, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/1358 "2016-09-16T03:46:40Z")

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Looks like they were bored and trolling.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\
**Post date:** [September 16, 2016, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/1359 "2016-09-16T03:56:48Z")

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Possibly, but another thing they’d have to do if they wanted to rate candidates on overall honesty is determine when their half true statements are intended to be half true. The best liars don’t say things that are obviously untrue, they lie to you with half truths and sometimes even actual truths taken out of their proper context.

Neither candidate is a particularly good liar, so this isn’t really applicable, but I imagine we’ll encounter one of these experts some day.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\
**Post date:** [September 16, 2016, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/hillary-clintons-presidential-campaign-discussion/753873/1360 "2016-09-16T04:03:37Z")

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What Trump lacks in quality, he makes up for in sheer volume.

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